From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: configurable means hard? [was: ... easier explanation how to setup gnus ...] Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 12:01:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1851107a-51f8-4514-a47d-0d0a6ce4fc4b@default> References: <5i61va9u7p.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <8761v9fp6k.fsf@abbey.wistly.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1376420508 23667 80.91.229.3 (13 Aug 2013 19:01:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 19:01:48 +0000 (UTC) To: Carson Chittom , help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Aug 13 21:01:49 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1V9Jqm-0000uZ-8G for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 21:01:48 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:40143 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1V9Jql-0006xf-S2 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 15:01:47 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:38978) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1V9JqR-0006x9-Or for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 15:01:36 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1V9JqJ-0002PM-6D for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 15:01:27 -0400 Original-Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:34138) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1V9JqI-0002PG-Vw for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 15:01:19 -0400 Original-Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1) with ESMTP id r7DJ17IN016864 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 13 Aug 2013 19:01:10 GMT Original-Received: from userz7021.oracle.com (userz7021.oracle.com [156.151.31.85]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r7DJ14mM024255 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 13 Aug 2013 19:01:07 GMT Original-Received: from abhmt120.oracle.com (abhmt120.oracle.com [141.146.116.72]) by userz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r7DJ13Xl010635; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 19:01:03 GMT In-Reply-To: <8761v9fp6k.fsf@abbey.wistly.net> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6668.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-Received-From: 141.146.126.69 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:92857 Archived-At: > But Gnus' defining feature is its configurability, and therefore > complexity: because it's so complex it's *hard* and you have to be > able to read the instructions, by and large, to do much that's useful. Hm. I hear you, and though not very familiar with Gnus I can sympathize to some extent with this point of view. But I think that the goal should be something that (I think) Emacs achieves pretty well: it is configurable as hell, and it can be as complex as you like, but it ALSO lets uninformed users pick it up and start using it right away, out of the box. Others will disagree, but I think that, yes, you CAN pick up Emacs and just start using it, in particular if you make use of the menus. And (others will disagree, but) that is a good thing. Others will disagree, but I think that it is important that users be able to access something that can be complex at different levels, including virtually total ignorance. It is important to try (TRY, at least) to hide complexity and reveal it only as needed, on demand. Users should not NEED to configure something and grok its innards before they can use it. They should BE ABLE to configure it and learn progressively about its guts and advanced features. Knowledgable users should be able to fix and reroute the plumbing at will, but users also deserve some porcelain and should not be REQUIRED to be plumbers to be able to open the faucet etc. And yes, I also hear that last qualification you wrote: "to do much that's useful". The "much" is relative, however. A new and naive user of Emacs can already do a fair amount that is useful, as soon as s?he opens the box. Maybe not so useful in the eyes of a more knowledgable user, but useful all the same.