From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Nick Roberts Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: What a modern collaboration toolkit looks like Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 10:11:47 +1300 Message-ID: <18298.44179.992888.601998@kahikatea.snap.net.nz> References: <20071230122217.3CA84830B9A@snark.thyrsus.com> <20071231130712.GB8641@thyrsus.com> <20071231214108.GD26639@thyrsus.com> <87fxxi1k4k.fsf@catnip.gol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1199221933 30788 80.91.229.12 (1 Jan 2008 21:12:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 21:12:13 +0000 (UTC) Cc: esr@thyrsus.com, esr@snark.thyrsus.com, Eli Zaretskii , emacs-devel@gnu.org, Miles Bader To: Tom Tromey Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jan 01 22:12:30 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1J9oPU-00043G-UN for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 22:12:29 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J9oP8-0002jG-S1 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 16:12:06 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1J9oP4-0002fq-Dz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 16:12:02 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1J9oP2-0002cO-WD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 16:12:02 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J9oP2-0002c3-PN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 16:12:00 -0500 Original-Received: from viper.snap.net.nz ([202.37.101.8]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1J9oOv-0002HX-Ar; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 16:11:53 -0500 Original-Received: from kahikatea.snap.net.nz (224.31.255.123.static.snap.net.nz [123.255.31.224]) by viper.snap.net.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 409723DA2B2; Wed, 2 Jan 2008 10:11:49 +1300 (NZDT) Original-Received: by kahikatea.snap.net.nz (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B88838FC6D; Wed, 2 Jan 2008 10:11:48 +1300 (NZDT) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: VM 7.19 under Emacs 23.0.50.20 X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.4-2.6 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:85822 Archived-At: > A couple years ago, after using and loving Emacs for 15 years, I moved > all my Java development into Eclipse. I did this despite the facts > that Eclipse's editor is amazingly bad and its UI is clunky and > impossible to customize. > > The reason I did this is that Eclipse provides a number of compelling > features which Emacs does not. At least, it does for Java -- for > other programming languages it is not nearly as useful, IME. > > * An integrated Java compiler that knows about your whole project. > This has a number of nice implications: > > * No more waiting. It compiles while you type. When you save a > file you are ready to run your tests immediately. > * Class browsing, call hierarchy information ("find all callers of > this method"), intelligent completion, documentation and API help > while you type. [snip - long list] Yes, I agree. While Emacs has certainly moved forward over the last few years, relatively it's fallen behind and I suspect many users are moving to other applications like Eclipse. It's a vicious circle: if we are ever to catch up we need more developers and attract them we need more users. That's why I think it's counterproductive to hold back releases for bugs like: ** eric@openbsd.org, 24 Nov: c-mode syntactic analysis regression in emacs-22.1 which might irritate some people but will hardly drive people away from using Emacs in large numbers. A bug tracker could record such bugs and track its status. In my experience, such bugs do get fixed, albeit several releases later. However, if the issue is ideological, i.e., that code is not released with any known bugs is more important than having a user base then there is no argument, of course. -- Nick http://www.inet.net.nz/~nickrob