From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Moving packages out of core to ELPA Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2024 16:19:31 +0200 Message-ID: <179ca34e-56cd-46e8-8510-f8cb14f3baba@gutov.dev> References: <87h6i6y2ch.fsf@yahoo.com> <86msrys0qj.fsf@gnu.org> <87r0h9x6og.fsf@yahoo.com> <4a1c9bc6-7287-481e-816d-cc1bbb3aa014@gutov.dev> <87bk8dx4mh.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="7911"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cc: Eli Zaretskii , JD Smith , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Po Lu Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Feb 18 15:19:57 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rbi1K-0001pd-O8 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 18 Feb 2024 15:19:55 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rbi15-0002OB-41; Sun, 18 Feb 2024 09:19:39 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rbi14-0002O0-Bh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 18 Feb 2024 09:19:38 -0500 Original-Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.27]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rbi12-0003A0-OW; Sun, 18 Feb 2024 09:19:38 -0500 Original-Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 926695C0041; Sun, 18 Feb 2024 09:19:34 -0500 (EST) Original-Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 18 Feb 2024 09:19:34 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gutov.dev; h=cc :cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:content-type:date :date:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:reply-to:subject:subject:to:to; s=fm2; t=1708265974; x=1708352374; bh=kLcJPOpfXSZTz090pQPY55Suf2YgWPqGd+TRnODp480=; b= m9PlX5Laqe547UTZsLrZVgQi74rzX+MxbcJoWHZIwJig3cSyoU6t76s8nrwA9Fns r4QaBYRQPkyGrpxrI5YuWiyinjuoaQLd729u7YRwXoOXTJFphwG/lOzJadv00iHg rXpJPPU13LGtebHREFBrAxy3dLWLnFX3jJ5Fumnl2O6PHTvM/mql/3rLWN9XeCEo xkurMPL1Uw9tRw+3dIJfqY6jICjJ1XZz6+upXSgM0Q/4lmjnfgrm0ut+3Soj8LNS +53c95RVrhlyLrPeQUme1Kcsj3fdmlJUjaziA45EFcrjnuIb+cqbEFmBiQsk3l5O uYw1d8zL8joExzvSOUB+QA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:content-type:date:date:feedback-id:feedback-id :from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:reply-to:subject:subject:to:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy :x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; t=1708265974; x= 1708352374; bh=kLcJPOpfXSZTz090pQPY55Suf2YgWPqGd+TRnODp480=; b=R h4sLieAuZk8u5R2D27teXzT0fdtjaNM4gbcIwgd4y/ERGuiKfCGUPzrGzxmDQjkV kK/k1bX7ER4ZNTHu5WBGvtcl/2PnXe4rXnh+GfK0rn6j9FNIWicCALCJvG5Tj9Nt K9ey8mo88ZuSXIcPtMab07DHYvEzK4aUalNAydRhw9LreLw/JsGph1nC7SeEmGxw W69p0S38fU2I079JNHpTOSd7lbMCzHKKNHF+56gpEYpIWk/0PE64VkEp7J9K/P9s 2RNUBc7YiMb7u7p1+i3UMV81HafwMXyhBY/R7SVq8g3ha4fnFAiTBUtHQmyfLPW1 z5926sXAnhbTukjNe0oOg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvledrvdeigdeihecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpefkffggfgfuvfevfhfhjggtgfesthejredttddvjeenucfhrhhomhepffhmihht rhihucfiuhhtohhvuceoughmihhtrhihsehguhhtohhvrdguvghvqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpeetudeljeegheetgfehgeejkeeuhedvveeikeeufedtvddtveefhfdvveegudej heenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpegumh hithhrhiesghhuthhovhdruggvvh X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i0e71465a:Fastmail Original-Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Sun, 18 Feb 2024 09:19:33 -0500 (EST) Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: <87bk8dx4mh.fsf@yahoo.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.111.4.27; envelope-from=dmitry@gutov.dev; helo=out3-smtp.messagingengine.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:316319 Archived-At: On 18/02/2024 15:51, Po Lu wrote: > Dmitry Gutov writes: > >> We seem to have a different understanding of the word "cost". > Yours appears to revolve around the cost to "Emacs maintenance"--but > this is an abstract conception offering little in the way of information > that might contribute to a sound decision. My definition is the > aggregate of the costs to each Emacs developer, which is zero, inasmuch > as work is not being done. With "zero cost to each developer", the package now lies in a state which cannot be called "well-maintained". So not only that means that the cost to have it in good state is non-zero, it also shows that the Emacs maintainers failed to identify the problem for a number of years. Because people weren't willing to expend the effort necessary to do so.