bug#14147: 24.3.50; turn on `minibuffer-depth-indicator-mode' by default

bug#14147: 24.3.50; turn on `minibuffer-depth-indicator-mode' by default

[Drew Adams]

It is unfortunate that this minor mode is still not turned on by
default.  There is no reason not to do so.  The mode has no effect when
there is no recursive minibuffer, which is most of the time.  And when
there is a recursive minibuffer it is essential that that fact be
communicated to users, one way or another.  This mode provides one way.
 
mb-depth.el has been present in the code for years now, but it is still
essentially ignored, unknown to most users.  Please put it to use,
letting users know when they are in a recursive minibuffer, by default.
Novice users are the least likely to discover this feature, and they are
perhaps the most in need of its aid.
 
This is no different from Emacs automatically adding nested `[...]' to
the mode line to indicate recursive editing levels.  No one would
suggest that that indicator be turned off by default and that users be
forced to learn about it on their own and turn it on.  The same should
be the case for indicating recursive minibuffer levels.  Should be a
no-brainer.

In GNU Emacs 24.3.50.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600)
 of 2013-03-28 on ODIEONE
Bzr revision: 112173 monnier@iro.umontreal.ca-20130328163306-419khox8aneaoaxv
Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 5.1.2600
Configured using:
 `configure --with-gcc (4.7) --no-opt --enable-checking --cflags
 -IC:/Devel/emacs/build/include --ldflags -LC:/Devel/emacs/build/lib'
 

bug#14147: 24.3.50; turn on `minibuffer-depth-indicator-mode' by default

[Stefan Monnier]

> there is a recursive minibuffer it is essential that that fact be
> communicated to users, one way or another.  This mode provides one way.

It is communicated, by default: it signals an error.


        Stefan

bug#14147: 24.3.50; turn on `minibuffer-depth-indicator-mode' by default

[Drew Adams]

> > when there is a recursive minibuffer it is essential that
> > that fact be communicated to users, one way or another.
> > This mode provides one way.
> 
> It is communicated, by default: it signals an error.

That's your answer?

Why not turn on `minibuffer-depth-indicator-mode' by default?  That's the
question, not whether you signal that there is a recursive minibuffer.

Or if that's really your answer then why not also signal an error whenever there
is a recursive edit, instead of showing `[...]' in the minibuffer?

(To be clear, FWIW, this is not for me or anyone who uses my code.  Icicle mode
has always turned on `minibuffer-depth-indicator-mode'.)

bug#14147: 24.3.50; turn on `minibuffer-depth-indicator-mode' by default

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

"Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

> It is unfortunate that this minor mode is still not turned on by
> default.  There is no reason not to do so.  The mode has no effect when
> there is no recursive minibuffer, which is most of the time.

I guess there's little point in having a global mode switched on when
virtually no users will be using it.  Having it on would mean Emacs
should be dumped with mb-depth.el, and I don't see that happening.

However, I think everybody who uses `enable-recursive-minibuffers' would
probably prefer that it's on.  I've now mentioned this mode in the doc
string of the latter.

Closing.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#14147: 24.3.50; turn on `minibuffer-depth-indicator-mode' by default

[Drew Adams]

> > It is unfortunate that this minor mode is still not turned on by
> > default.  There is no reason not to do so.  The mode has no effect when
> > there is no recursive minibuffer, which is most of the time.
> 
> I guess there's little point in having a global mode switched on when
> virtually no users will be using it.

Why the presumption that "no users will be using it"?

> Having it on would mean Emacs should be dumped with mb-depth.el,
> and I don't see that happening.

IOW, you don't want it on by default.

> However, I think everybody who uses `enable-recursive-minibuffers' would
> probably prefer that it's on.  I've now mentioned this mode in the doc
> string of the latter.
> 
> Closing.

It's not about users who have _customized_
`enable-recursive-minibuffers' to non-nil.

I imagine that few, if any, users do that.  But some commands do
BIND that var to non-nil to allow prompting for something else
during use of the minibuffer.

As the bug report said:

  This is no different from Emacs automatically adding nested
  `[...]' to the mode line to indicate recursive editing levels.

  No one would suggest that that indicator be turned off by default
  and that users be forced to learn about it on their own and turn
  it on.  The same should be the case for indicating recursive
  minibuffer levels.  Should be a no-brainer.

Perhaps you would argue that, because "no users will be using"
recursive edits, Emacs should stop automatically adding `[...]'
to the mode line to indicate recursive editing levels?  Make
users request that feature explicitly, perhaps by loading a
library?

bug#14147: 24.3.50; turn on `minibuffer-depth-indicator-mode' by default

[Nicolas Richard]

> It's not about users who have _customized_
> `enable-recursive-minibuffers' to non-nil.
>
> I imagine that few, if any, users do that.

I disagree with that part, from my own experience : I tried to use
recursive minibuffers, but emacs complained, so I customized the
variable. However I did not enable minibuffer-depth-indicate-mode until
much later when I finally found about it...

Thus I too think it should be on by default, but having it in the
docstring is better than nothing.

-- 
Nicolas