From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: RE: Emacs Book Vs Emacs Manuals Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 08:31:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <162a9f17-3a46-4dcb-8a3f-1819f5ac2d15@default> References: <554C9356.5000204@gmail.com> <20150508125314086261755@bob.proulx.com> <87bnhuc177.fsf@mbork.pl> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1431272030 940 80.91.229.3 (10 May 2015 15:33:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 15:33:50 +0000 (UTC) To: Rusi , help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun May 10 17:33:38 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1YrTEW-0004wH-Sp for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 10 May 2015 17:33:37 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:33804 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YrTEV-0007MT-Nw for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 10 May 2015 11:33:35 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:38868) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YrTEG-0007BR-Jc for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 10 May 2015 11:33:25 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YrTCq-0000JH-K5 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 10 May 2015 11:31:57 -0400 Original-Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:35356) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YrTCq-0000Ik-CQ for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 10 May 2015 11:31:52 -0400 Original-Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t4AFVjtG007255 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 10 May 2015 15:31:46 GMT Original-Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t4AFVjGH007541 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 10 May 2015 15:31:45 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0006.oracle.com (abhmp0006.oracle.com [141.146.116.12]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t4AFVjmE026406; Sun, 10 May 2015 15:31:45 GMT In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-Received-From: 156.151.31.81 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:104359 Archived-At: > selling emacs to students has led to lot of funny looks Funny looks are good. Encourage funny looks about Emacs. Emacs needs more funny looks. > and some significant hostility. Stop selling, in that case. > The tutorial with C-f C-b... for cursor movements was I guess the > last straw Really. Stop selling, if something like that is "the last straw". Don't bother. Do yourself and your customers a favor. Sounds like trying to get kiddies to eat their veggies. Try it when they're tiny, but if you can't make headway, give up and wait till they come 'round later, sometime after adolescence - some of 'em will; some of 'em won't. Not your problem, then. > what happens between noob and emacs when I am not around. It doesn't sound like it gets much better when you are around. ;-) > Student starts reading tutorial and sees the C-f C-b stuff:... > - But a few notice that cursor keys work as they should but is > not documented and are a bit confused/bewildered Teach 'em how to file a doc bug. Show that Emacs is undergoing development (still!) and that they are the developers. How would they improve this part of the tutorial? (How would you?) But of course the "doc" bug here concerns only the tutorial, not the doc: "is not documented" is simply not true. `C-h r i cursor TAB motion RET'. Teach them how to *Ask Emacs*. Should the tutorial mention this? Ask your students. That's likely to engage them in a productive and interesting discussion about Emacs design and use. Why does Emacs bind `C-f' etc.? What were those old farts thinking? Is this just vestigial baggage? Just hysterical raisins? > - And of those few, a few get real HOSTILE Move to a less privileged environment to teach, where the kids have more important things to "get real HOSTILE" about. > Now if the cursor-keys didn't work it would not be so bad So unbind them in the Emacs version that you expose to your congregation. Erect a sign, like in Disneyland, with a bar 1.5m high, and tell them that only those taller than the bar can go on the Real Emacs ride. Too risky for toddlers - they're limited to the shallow end of the Emacs pool. But someday... Then maybe show some of them how to add cursor-key bindings to the kiddie pool. Look, Ma! I made work, all by myself! Tu m'as vu !? Extra credit: Ask Emacs, instead of Rusi, how to add the key bindings. > And ideal would be for them to work AND be documented Again: teach about doc bugs. But again: they *are* documented. > But works and NOT documented/demoed in tutorial... and there > are serious allegations of ATTITUDE! Take a nap. This too will pass.