From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Key bindings proposal Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 08:07:31 -0700 Message-ID: <15A1E47393A44678811B41A238C09E73@us.oracle.com> References: <19534.1494.627000.357123@gargle.gargle.HOWL><19537.40472.267000.563053@gargle.gargle.HOWL><87tymlv41y.fsf@mail.jurta.org><8D701A9E7D444011925CB68BF0883D2B@us.oracle.com><87hbikdss4.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <87iq2yzvpo.fsf@mail.jurta.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1282748893 30358 80.91.229.12 (25 Aug 2010 15:08:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 15:08:13 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "'Juri Linkov'" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Aug 25 17:08:12 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OoHaF-0006JO-D0 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 17:08:11 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60440 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OoHaE-00047h-H9 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 11:08:10 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=51484 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OoHZy-00040o-OK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 11:08:00 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OoHZt-000064-6U for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 11:07:54 -0400 Original-Received: from rcsinet10.oracle.com ([148.87.113.121]:41979) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OoHZt-00005o-0s for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 11:07:49 -0400 Original-Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by rcsinet10.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id o7PF7hM3025089 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 25 Aug 2010 15:07:44 GMT Original-Received: from acsmt354.oracle.com (acsmt354.oracle.com [141.146.40.154]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id o7PD0PrN016445; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 15:07:43 GMT Original-Received: from abhmt001.oracle.com by acsmt354.oracle.com with ESMTP id 548136311282748860; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 08:07:40 -0700 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 08:07:36 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <87iq2yzvpo.fsf@mail.jurta.org> Thread-Index: ActEXVUQ1TstlyJRSwuZpabDlkMoPQABuK+w X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5931 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:129212 Archived-At: > >> But what are technical difficulties of implementing menu > >> accelerators? > > > > I have no idea. But apparently Lennart has more or less > > succeeded for Windows, and Stephen mentioned that XEmacs > > added accelerators long ago. > > Does XEmacs bind a key (or key sequences) to access the > top-level menu? I mean something like or Alt-F > (for File menu)? No idea. Maybe Stephen can help you here. > >> IIUC, Gtk and Windows already support menu accelerators, > >> and they will also improve navigation in tmm-menubar > >> (that currently assigns quite random accelerators). > > > > [With La Carte what you type directly reflects the menu > > names themselves: you complete against a menu path (with > > substring etc. matching, if you use Icicles or Ido etc.). > > > > There is nothing arbitrary about what you type. This helps you > > learn and remember the menu organization. You can drill > > down the menu hierarchy progressively, as in TMM (but with > > meaningful input) or you can match your menu target directly.] > > Tmm is for menu navigation, and La Carte is for menu completion. > I think they both are useful. Nope. La Carte is particularly helpful for menu _navigation_, especially if used together with Icicles (or Ido or...). If to navigate means to get around, to orient yourself, to see both the trees and the forest, to see where you are and where you can go and how to get there, then La Carte beats TMM everytime for navigation. You can see all or any part of the menu tree. You can change the scope of your view of the tree incrementally (on the fly). And what you see are the actual menu names and menu-item names - there is no artificial legend/key/map to refer to, nothing to learn or forget. You might call such a legend "accelerators". And so they can be, but they require an indirection and learning, at least at first. And "at first" is always "now" for at least some parts of the tree (no one is intimately familiar with the entire tree). Even if some simple accelerator-naming rules are used, there is still some learning and some level of arbitrariness to the map/code. Simple analogy: Imagine that `C-x C-f' did not use the actual file and directory names, but required you to use a TMM-like UI where you drilled down from the root each time using single-key codes (~menu accelerators). Is that a better UI for navigation? I don't think so. To further improve navigation, add to the usual `C-x C-f' (using file names) the ability to match also directory names (anywhere along the path) and match using more powerful patterns (multiple substrings or regexps). That's analogous to La Carte (+ Icicles or Ido or... for the fancy matching). Anyway, Uday's point was about menu accelerators, and my reply was that Emacs has them (XEmacs, Lennart/Windows) or could have them. And I support it doing so.