From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Konstantin Kharlamov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Documenting FSF copyright assignment process Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 11:57:24 +0300 Message-ID: <1555059444.24928.0@yandex.ru> References: <1554939201.27299.0@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1251; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="244400"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" Cc: rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Apr 12 10:58:17 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hEs0n-0011Mj-Ef for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 12 Apr 2019 10:58:17 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:32814 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hEs0m-0007Uz-BB for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 12 Apr 2019 04:58:16 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:51231) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hEs08-0007Ut-OR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 12 Apr 2019 04:57:38 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hEs07-0002DQ-Bb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 12 Apr 2019 04:57:36 -0400 Original-Received: from forward104j.mail.yandex.net ([2a02:6b8:0:801:2::107]:39143) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hEs03-00024a-4v; Fri, 12 Apr 2019 04:57:32 -0400 Original-Received: from mxback11j.mail.yandex.net (mxback11j.mail.yandex.net [IPv6:2a02:6b8:0:1619::84]) by forward104j.mail.yandex.net (Yandex) with ESMTP id 663F14A0DD3; Fri, 12 Apr 2019 11:57:26 +0300 (MSK) Original-Received: from smtp1j.mail.yandex.net (smtp1j.mail.yandex.net [2a02:6b8:0:801::ab]) by mxback11j.mail.yandex.net (nwsmtp/Yandex) with ESMTP id z3jSPxWNNy-vQx4akmx; Fri, 12 Apr 2019 11:57:26 +0300 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yandex.ru; s=mail; t=1555059446; bh=7AahODKZ7oQJE9eW0i6/WI7w2myqbbGar/CFw3ekZnI=; h=In-Reply-To:Cc:To:Subject:From:References:Date:Message-Id; b=dnrHbP/q0Ahs88VF1hBbWAVAeTFQ0oQqcKX/1xugr1whYeYIFg/8yBYwy+E7FSUEr vGuNZ6lpHKKiycqkqHo8OlU7lNRuFquEPaUkm2aY+eOOnVqNkGNgsGd3Xppg+AAyxQ cjUJsl/qqHRwkrBk7Y12DurJCEWQ12jn6Ton8fM4= Authentication-Results: mxback11j.mail.yandex.net; dkim=pass header.i=@yandex.ru Original-Received: by smtp1j.mail.yandex.net (nwsmtp/Yandex) with ESMTPSA id MS6P9ZKzJ7-vPoWpqpK; Fri, 12 Apr 2019 11:57:25 +0300 (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client certificate not present) In-Reply-To: <83d0lr4sj7.fsf@gnu.org> X-Mailer: geary/mainline~g7970b668 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2a02:6b8:0:801:2::107 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:235329 Archived-At: On =CF=F2, Apr 12, 2019 at 10:00, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 02:49:09 +0300 >> From: Konstantin Kharlamov >> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org >>=20 >> > The only way I can understand this particular aspect of the issue=20 >> is >> > by assuming that people don't read the section in the Emacs manual >> > where this is described, the one you quoted in your email, because >> > that section explicitly tells to ask on emacs-devel. >>=20 >> Not really. The section I quoted tells to ask any questions on >> emacs-devel, but not to ask for the form/instructions in there. >=20 > I admit I don't understand this logic. You are told to ask _anything_ > about the assignment process on this list, including for how to start > the process: >=20 > Copyright assignment is a simple process. Residents of some > countries can do it entirely electronically. We can help you get > started, and answer any questions you may have (or point you to the > people with the answers), at the mailing list. >=20 > So why would someone think that asking about the form is > inappropriate? The logic is: this whole page is a documentation about the assignment,=20 it's even titled accordingly. So somewhere it should have all the gory=20 details. But there's none. And then there's a suggestion to ask any question on emacs-devel. Sure,=20 absence of steps for getting assignment implies you have one; but at=20 the same time the fact that you're reading the Emacs documentation on=20 getting assignment implies that you shouldn't have *this specific*=20 question, because sure it's documented here. So you reading it over and=20 over, you look at other places, you query the internet=85 This makes=20 one feel silly, and asking on emacs-devel becomes sort of last resort. >> Although GNU Emacs indeed are not the source for form, however it is >> Emacs that has the mandatory requirement for the assignment. >=20 > No, every GNU project has this requirement, not just Emacs. GCC, GDB, > Binutils, Coreutils, Bash, Diffutils, Grep, Texinfo, Gnulib, Guile, > Wget -- you name it. They all require an assignment. Even submitting > translations for messages of some program requires an assignment. >=20 >> Okay, maybe it's not an issue for you, because you're used to the >> mailing list, as well as to replies to assignment form inqueries. >>=20 >> But it is an issue for an arbitrary user who wants the form. >>=20 >> First of: there's no requirement for a contributor to be subscribed >> here, since patches go to debbugs site anyway. And a user may not=20 >> know >> how to use a mailing list: does one have to subscribe? How to >> subscribe? What to do with dozens of mails from the list every day? >> Nowadays you can't reasonably expect arbitrary peoples to know how=20 >> MLs >> work. >>=20 >> Second: a user may not be a native speaker, so composing a mail may >> take time for that alone reason. You can't expect a contributor to=20 >> be a >> good speaker either, because they could be e.g. just a student who >> wants to improve the app they're using as part of their paper. >>=20 >> Third: sending to a -devel ML means asking real developers. This=20 >> may be >> an overwhelming thought, making one to try to avoid that as much as >> possible. I'm telling that from my own past experience: though right >> now I'm comfortable (I work as a developer, I contributed to many >> projects, I just got used to being around developers), but it wasn't >> always true. Just 3-4 years ago I'd be really afraid, thinking "But >> assignment form doesn't sound like a development question, am I sure >> this is correct? Won't they make laugh of me?". >>=20 >> Fourth: sending to an ML means there's a bunch of people, and=20 >> everyone >> gonna see your mail. If you have social communication problems, for >> example sociophobia, this is a demotivational factor. >>=20 >> Fifth: asking specifically for copyright assignment on ML feels like >> yelling "look everyone, I'm gonna contribute to Emacs!", whereas one >> may not even be sure about usefulness of planned contributions. One=20 >> may >> just have some thoughts for improvements, but they may not pan out=20 >> for >> one reason or another. I think this may demotivate anyone, doubly=20 >> so if >> one has social communication problems. >>=20 >> And don't forget that the factors can be combined! Whereas the fix=20 >> is >> dead easy: just make it clear how to get the form and instructions >> without any interaction. >=20 > With the relevant information now explicitly spelled in CONTRIBUTE, I > think these issues are more-or-less solved now. Thank you! Btw, I just looked at log for CONTRIBUTE=20 http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/log/CONTRIBUTE I don't seem=20 to see anything new. Are they perhaps on review? =