From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Konstantin Kharlamov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Documenting FSF copyright assignment process Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 02:49:09 +0300 Message-ID: <1555026549.10016.0@yandex.ru> References: <1554939201.27299.0@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="201363"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" Cc: rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Apr 12 01:49:37 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hEjRn-000qEl-GN for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 12 Apr 2019 01:49:35 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56413 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hEjRm-0001md-6i for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 11 Apr 2019 19:49:34 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:50908) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hEjRf-0001mY-TO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 11 Apr 2019 19:49:29 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hEjRe-0007P6-DS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 11 Apr 2019 19:49:27 -0400 Original-Received: from forward102o.mail.yandex.net ([2a02:6b8:0:1a2d::602]:58529) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hEjRY-0007Ls-AB; Thu, 11 Apr 2019 19:49:22 -0400 Original-Received: from mxback15o.mail.yandex.net (mxback15o.mail.yandex.net [IPv6:2a02:6b8:0:1a2d::66]) by forward102o.mail.yandex.net (Yandex) with ESMTP id C097B668012C; Fri, 12 Apr 2019 02:49:11 +0300 (MSK) Original-Received: from smtp4o.mail.yandex.net (smtp4o.mail.yandex.net [2a02:6b8:0:1a2d::28]) by mxback15o.mail.yandex.net (nwsmtp/Yandex) with ESMTP id 5PBPn3neLX-nBauBxro; Fri, 12 Apr 2019 02:49:11 +0300 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yandex.ru; s=mail; t=1555026551; bh=+DTpk3fd/rfmBH68afmXFM5Y3gQ4txoyQZ9ukI8XFkU=; h=In-Reply-To:Cc:To:Subject:From:References:Date:Message-Id; b=MdLkbqzIgOlLPSCU+Q4Px1sbscN7mghYnYm+k6XC6g7yG7StN89B4mZmeEu3Q1R8f wTGtEayp2hkq34E+95pjGFoDpi6orf6CUGFPz8K3MHxx8k2MCJzVaOOVP8OFxaue+9 SO0M3d0HMFNSbhLXksuiavNfLW9VOucxELtxpw0w= Authentication-Results: mxback15o.mail.yandex.net; dkim=pass header.i=@yandex.ru Original-Received: by smtp4o.mail.yandex.net (nwsmtp/Yandex) with ESMTPSA id JCqPWeJF24-nAGq1iIk; Fri, 12 Apr 2019 02:49:10 +0300 (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client certificate not present) In-Reply-To: <837ec0645s.fsf@gnu.org> X-Mailer: geary/master~g59ef85ca X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2a02:6b8:0:1a2d::602 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:235320 Archived-At: =D0=92 =D0=A7=D1=82, =D0=B0=D0=BF=D1=80 11, 2019 at 16:51, Eli Zaretskii =20 =D0=BD=D0=B0=D0=BF=D0=B8=D1=81=D0=B0=D0=BB: >> Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2019 02:33:21 +0300 >> From: Konstantin Kharlamov >> Cc: Richard Stallman >>=20 >> I recently went through the signing procedure, and one thing I=20 >> didn't >> like which can be improved: the specific steps up to sending a mail=20 >> to >> assign@gnu.org are not documented. In my case I had to send a=20 >> private >> mail to Eli asking for the assignment form, he sent it back to me=20 >> along >> with further instructions; then I filled the form and sent it to >> assign@gnu.org. >>=20 >> This is a roundtrip that takes time for both maintainer and a user. >=20 > Don't worry about the maintainer's time. It took me all of 10 sec to > respond with the form and the instructions for filling it. >=20 >> Additionally, users are not even sure if what they're doing is=20 >> correct, >> e.g. look at the last "assignment"-titled mail on this list, it=20 >> starts >> with "I'm not sure if it's the right place to ask this". Yes,=20 >> neither >> was I! >=20 > The only way I can understand this particular aspect of the issue is > by assuming that people don't read the section in the Emacs manual > where this is described, the one you quoted in your email, because > that section explicitly tells to ask on emacs-devel. Not really. The section I quoted tells to ask any questions on=20 emacs-devel, but not to ask for the form/instructions in there. When I=20 read that section I'm getting stuck "What do I do now? Yeah, I can ask=20 a question on emacs-devel, but that sounds silly, because sure=20 somewhere here should be the steps for what to do now". So I'm reading=20 the section over and over, then I start googling, reading through a=20 bunch of irrelevant stuff on the internet=E2=80=A6 And only then, as I give= =20 up, I, depending on the level of frustration, do either of =CE=B1) lay that= =20 aside to some distant future, or =CE=B2) ask a non-confident question here=20 about assignment. > I can understand why this could happen: our user manual, being such a > large document, it is not the best place to include this information > and hope that it will be easily discoverable there. So I've included > that information near the beginning of CONTRIBUTE, which is about the > first document potential contributors should read before sending > patches. >=20 >> It would really help if the emacs documentation about assignment=C2=B9=20 >> has >> either =CE=B1) a paragraph with the form to be sent to assign@gnu.org=20 >> and >> according instructions, or =CE=B2) if it has to be documented on anothe= r >> site, e.g. FSF's, it would help to put a link to emacs=20 >> documentation=C2=B9 >> after the words "Copyright assignment is a simple process." (and I=20 >> hope >> that this would-be referred documentation includes =CE=B1; preferrably=20 >> with >> any legal notes =E2=80=94 if there will be any =E2=80=94 moved somewher= e at the >> bottom). >=20 > If the FSF places the forms on some official site, and accompany them > with the necessary instructions about how to choose the correct one > (yes, there's more than one form), then I agree that we should > reference that place in our docs. But I don't think it's right for us > to include the assignment form(s) in our docs, because we are not the > source of the document, and don't really have to understand all the > intricacies of the process, starting with how to choose the correct > form for each case. (Gnulib does include the forms in its repository, > but I don't think this is TRT for any GNU project to do that.) Although GNU Emacs indeed are not the source for form, however it is=20 Emacs that has the mandatory requirement for the assignment. This means=20 it is correct for Emacs to have it documented =E2=80=94 one way or another. > I think having the information in CONTRIBUTE will make it much more > discoverable. As for the time it takes to ask for the form and send > it in response, I don't see that as a significant issue. Okay, maybe it's not an issue for you, because you're used to the=20 mailing list, as well as to replies to assignment form inqueries. But it is an issue for an arbitrary user who wants the form. First of: there's no requirement for a contributor to be subscribed=20 here, since patches go to debbugs site anyway. And a user may not know=20 how to use a mailing list: does one have to subscribe? How to=20 subscribe? What to do with dozens of mails from the list every day?=20 Nowadays you can't reasonably expect arbitrary peoples to know how MLs=20 work. Second: a user may not be a native speaker, so composing a mail may=20 take time for that alone reason. You can't expect a contributor to be a=20 good speaker either, because they could be e.g. just a student who=20 wants to improve the app they're using as part of their paper. Third: sending to a -devel ML means asking real developers. This may be=20 an overwhelming thought, making one to try to avoid that as much as=20 possible. I'm telling that from my own past experience: though right=20 now I'm comfortable (I work as a developer, I contributed to many=20 projects, I just got used to being around developers), but it wasn't=20 always true. Just 3-4 years ago I'd be really afraid, thinking "But=20 assignment form doesn't sound like a development question, am I sure=20 this is correct? Won't they make laugh of me?". Fourth: sending to an ML means there's a bunch of people, and everyone=20 gonna see your mail. If you have social communication problems, for=20 example sociophobia, this is a demotivational factor. Fifth: asking specifically for copyright assignment on ML feels like=20 yelling "look everyone, I'm gonna contribute to Emacs!", whereas one=20 may not even be sure about usefulness of planned contributions. One may=20 just have some thoughts for improvements, but they may not pan out for=20 one reason or another. I think this may demotivate anyone, doubly so if=20 one has social communication problems. And don't forget that the factors can be combined! Whereas the fix is=20 dead easy: just make it clear how to get the form and instructions=20 without any interaction. =