From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?Q?Jostein=20Kj=C3=B8nigsen?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: delete-selection-mode as default Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2018 22:28:22 +0200 Message-ID: <1536352102.2572415.1500655784.246B09BA@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <83k1nxvm5j.fsf@gnu.org> <877ejxsm18.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <87r2i5308w.fsf@gmail.com> <8336ulv2le.fsf@gnu.org> <87must2y0u.fsf@gmail.com> <8f15d091-df1a-4858-b8cd-a372c515bd6a@default> <87in3h2q31.fsf@gmail.com> Reply-To: jostein@kjonigsen.net NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_----------=_153635210225724157" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1536351992 9779 195.159.176.226 (7 Sep 2018 20:26:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 20:26:32 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Sep 07 22:26:28 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fyNKl-0002NZ-An for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2018 22:26:28 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:40149 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fyNMr-0000yn-Ei for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2018 16:28:37 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:39768) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fyNMk-0000yi-Jw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2018 16:28:31 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fyNMj-0001l0-2c for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2018 16:28:30 -0400 Original-Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.25]:49925) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fyNMf-0001LZ-A4; Fri, 07 Sep 2018 16:28:25 -0400 Original-Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id B155121E13; Fri, 7 Sep 2018 16:28:22 -0400 (EDT) Original-Received: from web3 ([10.202.2.213]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 07 Sep 2018 16:28:22 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= secure.kjonigsen.net; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :reply-to:subject:to:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=EuWI/yCdhkBqtr+WopEl5PlIH8pNeaY5Ac8pFmN/BmI=; b=SevX8GP7uGu+ 5MVV6+/8wUl3zj2hjIq4bX+hO7r3XwNPbHdZUsN51SdBPUSUixk5At7/j/bhsJTq VdsZyQnX3jMpNSkG/1ZAhsXYV0lrp3YVZUzbYqvhuTsjQKBDJ1wa/iH06wa2NY0N mnWh4YIJG03/PZG+tioRWVgOUWheVn7nQxA6AILvYi2Tz6sBIwj+qGBHVMdNr7zd TN87myAqxZlt7NYcIvUZaTkARiEx6MDuSKvFBY2rigfYZ0Kwo2qAncXCw844c4vV aLQqunQ2g5hzXa+wk2gB8iiX5OQhtXsGGkxJaGYpaiJNBx2JSucEoEqGa8oieof4 nbTznsEQTQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :reply-to:subject:to:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=EuWI/yCdhkBqtr+WopEl5PlIH8pNeaY5Ac8pFmN/BmI=; b=mk8SOHQN/PX7 SWLRG2GI1xNsvLjiEBhS0TGBxchYxGjdKkr5RziTUb3NK7X2cIditrXkbmUdmtSA BB4UDUn8IOSgHA1ACymhSg57X0+NK1azTWjG5+AG7j7VajIK0AShHaMN6Uvw689d Y9b2k96Dez45vpvoIt1R8BA8afv4XQh+w4MUrAhv76L5GIWbOpMh97rg/zkCWCWZ p5nOD5YFqLC6cvvhkBICPDadUeiwNm6OJqHY+SoLKmMaCOaHKbAE2EMu8UtctuHE FHrkp6u4eRVJ1LwrJJsE4z9zt+dS2oEYAGZyVaB9C47z0qPl9lq86uwPIEgmg1gU NgSBzxPa9w== X-ME-Proxy: X-ME-Sender: Original-Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 99) id 3E2FE9E498; Fri, 7 Sep 2018 16:28:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface - ajax-1234af23 In-Reply-To: <87in3h2q31.fsf@gmail.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 66.111.4.25 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229450 Archived-At: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --_----------=_153635210225724157 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" I realize Eli is a Emacs-vetaran and his opinion holds a lot of weight here. That said.... > When a selection is active, why would anyone assume that typing an > arbitrary letter is supposed to replace the entire selection, or to > disable it? Because that's what users expect after this having been the default interaction model for all applications for more than 3 decades. I realize Emacs is older than that, but trying to pretend that the outside world haven't established a set of conventions people have come to expect is pretty much being the ostrich sticking your head in the sand. Adhering to the conventions the user expect is user-friendly. We should do that by default when it doesn't introduce needless complexity (like arguably enabling cua-mode would). That still leaves the option for power users, like yourself, to customize the behaviour in non-conventional ways which you find powerful. I mean... I -love- paredit. It's amazing. But it clearly should not be the *default* for editing LISP files, unless we want to throw new-comers away before they've managed to say hello. All in all, I vote for this change. -- Regards Jostein Kj=C3=B8nigsen jostein@kjonigsen.net =F0=9F=8D=B5 jostein@gmail.com https://jostein.kjonigsen.net On Fri, Sep 7, 2018, at 7:08 PM, Robert Pluim wrote: > Drew Adams writes: >=20 >>> I wasn't picking a side, nor do I think we should pick one for >>> anyone>>> else. >>=20 >> It's about the choice of a __default__ behavior. Currently one >> particular>> choice was made. It's possible to choose a different one in= stead. In>> any case the choice of the default behavior picks the behavior = for >> everyone - but only the default behavior. >=20 > Right. I meant that I don=CA=BCt think we should change the default > behaviour, but I won't scream if we do since I can always put it back.>=20 --_----------=_153635210225724157 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" 
I realize Eli is a Emacs-vetaran an=
d his opinion holds a lot of
weight here. That said....

> When a selection is active, why would anyone assume that typing an
> arbitrary letter is supposed to replace the entire selection, or to
> disable it?

Because that's what users expect after this having been the default
interaction model for all applications for more than 3 decades.

I realize Emacs is older than that, but trying to pretend that the
outside world haven't established a set of conventions people have
come to expect is pretty much being the ostrich sticking your head in
the sand.

Adhering to the conventions the user expect is user-friendly. We
should do that by default when it doesn't introduce needless
complexity (like arguably enabling cua-mode would).

That still leaves the option for power users, like yourself, to
customize the behaviour in non-conventional ways which you find
powerful.

I mean... I -love- paredit. It's amazing. But it clearly should not be
the *default* for editing LISP files, unless we want to throw
new-comers away before they've managed to say hello.

All in all, I vote for this change.

--
Regard= s
Jostein Kj=C3=B8nigsen

jostein@k= jonigsen.net =F0=9F=8D=B5 jostein@= gmail.com
https://= jostein.kjonigsen.net


On Fri, Sep 7, 2018, at 7:08 PM, Robert Pluim wrote:
Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

I wasn't picking a side, nor do I think we sho= uld pick one for anyone
else.

It's about the choice of a _default_ behavior. Currently one pa= rticular
choice was made. It's possible to choose a different one instead. In
any case the choice of the default behavior picks the behavior for
=
everyone - but only the default behavior.

Right. I meant that I don=CA=BCt think we should change the default
behaviour, but I won't scream if we do since I can always put it back.=


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