From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Bozhidar Batsov" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Brand new clojure support in Emacs ;-) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2023 22:38:07 +0200 Message-ID: <14c0b906-966e-4090-93b4-eba75fbe0521@app.fastmail.com> References: <87il9kksqz.fsf@dfreeman.email> <87350ndquw.fsf@dfreeman.email> <83350ncbns.fsf@gnu.org> <87cyzrjbd8.fsf@dfreeman.email> <83zg2vav46.fsf@gnu.org> <87o7j99304.fsf@dfreeman.email> <87zg2hsyrd.fsf@dfreeman.email> <87h6ontwfv.fsf@posteo.net> <835y4ucrz3.fsf@gnu.org> <831qficgin.fsf@gnu.org> <87ttsehwab.fsf@dfreeman.email> <87fs3x6ge7.fsf@gmail.com> <87v8cthmzl.fsf@dfreeman.email> <87a5u56atj.fsf@gmail.com> <875y4t69vq.fsf@gmail.com> <90ac490a-1d95-4704-b4f8-908b16861aec@app.fastmail.com> <87fs3v44wa.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=2e45abac151443459fa8bc5c48a89232 Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="15400"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.9.0-alpha0-701-g9b2f44d3ee-fm-20230823.001-g9b2f44d3 Cc: "Danny Freeman" , "Eli Zaretskii" , "Dmitry Gutov" , "Richard Stallman" , "Emacs Devel" To: =?UTF-8?Q?Jo=C3=A3o_T=C3=A1vora?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Sep 03 22:39:20 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qctsJ-0003jH-Pe for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 03 Sep 2023 22:39:17 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qctri-0004jw-Ho; Sun, 03 Sep 2023 16:38:38 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qctrd-0004jg-5e for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 03 Sep 2023 16:38:33 -0400 Original-Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.27]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qctrZ-0008H2-VN; Sun, 03 Sep 2023 16:38:32 -0400 Original-Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 816C55C00C1; Sun, 3 Sep 2023 16:38:28 -0400 (EDT) Original-Received: from imap43 ([10.202.2.93]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 03 Sep 2023 16:38:28 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=batsov.dev; h=cc :cc:content-type:content-type:date:date:from:from:in-reply-to :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:sender :subject:subject:to:to; s=fm3; t=1693773508; x=1693859908; bh=SW Ilmno1J5E9b08Yu8jt2AyC8I0ReU4Be3a/cDi3KL0=; b=t+CnmUpNRc0oxSqd4v QdkbEIdv23hVJEl7HG0aec/Ll/7MtAlLqH6rS+enP8EvyGKQNAoRzn9jWNEjXxg8 uFSJfoCz841ihNRRw2oXbe/IjClIILY/ujYVva5lPdwVOCriAnskE0iNybZWE0du pNaxsojKbJfb4Q1+78Og6jqlaDycFGArdRMd+FaXHva5SXn6K1m/WTP3sNcZbfEq 6EN/ss8dXx63/qOQSA7mz6WP5OnO7C5d3UVKznH4TBjO5sgNgFJ95AA6Nw/buwtl GcZ1meMXQlzohJgHov/0LNd/N+4R0dzSW5tIkqXB5JlLDUpaumrehXEkWzoHTZPl W7oQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-type:content-type:date:date :feedback-id:feedback-id:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:sender:subject :subject:to:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; t=1693773508; x=1693859908; bh=SWIlmno1J5E9b 08Yu8jt2AyC8I0ReU4Be3a/cDi3KL0=; b=TRl6XIr8tP6AElc3zphcGERnwNenA vTtIhmQLz2LVseZaMurW0/cpwsP6d07+iS3VIx5w8LrdNlMbFCGaiuEYAGuPitKp i7qwiRnF0hoykpGdbn4PvsvKbxin5rV/BkGWbbwDZL9sDzPHIaWYaur07Iz4f0qy bUtmvNzVWYE08+thATuolmci/IhEW4g5qy3DNRM2uNy5aZfkD8FUwu6WKaBt6d8d njgzUfaJOGzzNYUEXNsMdJgGv8kft4DyIBrl4rZQakg6oHfZ+ChAt3EGkphiHROq p+jRNS7KRLljlAWoBGT3u01JltcwQgZUqsgEllp6cC2Vd9NNHrmcbu4tg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedviedrudegiedgudehfecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmd enucfjughrpefofgggkfgjfhffhffvvefutgesrgdtreerreerjeenucfhrhhomhepfdeu ohiihhhiuggrrhcuuegrthhsohhvfdcuoegsohiihhhiuggrrhessggrthhsohhvrdguvg hvqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeevvddtgfevveevjeevleefuefhjeffieelueefteet ieejkeekfeejueevgeeufeenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmh grihhlfhhrohhmpegsohiihhhiuggrrhessggrthhsohhvrdguvghv X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i025946a9:Fastmail Original-Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 07D5E2D40092; Sun, 3 Sep 2023 16:38:28 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.111.4.27; envelope-from=bozhidar@batsov.dev; helo=out3-smtp.messagingengine.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:310024 Archived-At: --2e45abac151443459fa8bc5c48a89232 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Sure I got that. And currently CIDER is strongly coupled to > implementation details of clojure-mode. You say it like it was some design failure, but when there was just a si= ngle mode (which is the case like 99% of the time) there's little point = to prematurely abstract away such details.=20 > I clearly wrote about integrating with CIDER, not rewriting it. > So, again, you're really reading things that I didn't write. Well, you did speak about RCP and there's nothing at the RCP level happe= ning between clojure-mode and CIDER. (all the RCP-related code is in CID= ER) The APIs that are being used are things like "find the current Cloju= re namespace", sexp-related functions, etc.=20 > Then you said it's "funny" that my ideas -- which you totally misread > -- are starting from some naive position that you already faced > 15 years ago. Then you talk about your "big organization of people" > and your track record, that there's only two Clojure programmers in > this conversation, that we're not "subject experts". Instead of > technical arguments, you drop videos of your presentations on youtube > and links to your blog posts. I don't want to write here again things that I've written about in the p= ast (or presented in the past). I fail to see how sharing such resources= is problematic in any way. You might have also noticed that most of the= time I use the pronoun "we", because I certainly don't want to claim al= l the credit for the work done by the broader group of people who are pa= rt of clojure-emacs or have contributed to it. And I honest don't unders= tand why you got so hung up on "subject matter experts". I'm not an expe= rt in LSP and I wouldn't dare to lecture you how to do things in eglot, = but I do know a bit about Clojure, nREPL and all the Emacs packages and = I happen to know what we've tried and didn't work out. You want to brush= this aside, for reasons that are still unclear to me.=20 I guess I rub you the wrong way for some reason, which seems to go both = ways.=20 > If all this is not a paternalistic attempt at dissuasion, it's at > least odd from someone who's already said he's not interested > in contributing to this endeavor, and who's not really being > asked to anymore. What "endeavour" is that exactly? Bringing clojure-mode/clojure-ts-mode = to core or replacing them with 2 lines of code? And who started the conv= ersation in a hostile manner? If I didn't happen to be subscribed to ema= cs-devel I wouldn't even know what was being discussed here, given how e= vents unfolded. Is it really surprising I'd be unhappy about the communi= cation on the topic so far? =20 On Sun, Sep 3, 2023, at 9:30 PM, Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora wrote: > On Sun, Sep 3, 2023 at 7:37=E2=80=AFPM Bozhidar Batsov wrote: >=20 > > I'll leave him to speak for himself, but we've been collaborating > > a bit since the beginning and I've always intended that eventually > > clojure-ts-mode will become clojure-mode. >=20 > Oh maybe one one of the names you took will free up then. :-) >=20 > > CIDER will support clojure-ts-mode - that's another things we've >=20 > Sure I got that. And currently CIDER is strongly coupled to > implementation details of clojure-mode. So for your plans to take > place, this will require outlining the existing informal API between > the two realities: major mode and CIDER overlay minor mode. This > will be a good thing in itself, and hopefully it will allow other > Clojure major modes to take advantage of CIDER. >=20 > > By all means - go and re-create CIDER as well, oh all mighty > > Wizard of the RPC! :-) >=20 > I clearly wrote about integrating with CIDER, not rewriting it. > So, again, you're really reading things that I didn't write. >=20 > > Yeah, I'm totally making shit up just to sound important and > > you've exposed me to the world! Shame on me! >=20 > Let's see, you wrote in your many recent messages, just as an example: >=20 > > without an understanding of Clojure and its tooling ecosystem > > (and it's history) it's hard to make good suggestions about > > what makes sense and what doesn't. >=20 > Then you said it's "funny" that my ideas -- which you totally misread > -- are starting from some naive position that you already faced > 15 years ago. Then you talk about your "big organization of people" > and your track record, that there's only two Clojure programmers in > this conversation, that we're not "subject experts". Instead of > technical arguments, you drop videos of your presentations on youtube > and links to your blog posts. >=20 > If all this is not a paternalistic attempt at dissuasion, it's at > least odd from someone who's already said he's not interested > in contributing to this endeavor, and who's not really being > asked to anymore. >=20 > > I'm juggling more projects that I have time for and the only reason > > I got involved in clojure-mode is that there was no one else willing > > to do the work that was required. >=20 > A good way to help solve your problem would be to contribute it to > GNU Emacs. I wouldn't expect to become experts overnight, but we'd > do our best. >=20 --2e45abac151443459fa8bc5c48a89232 Content-Type: text/html;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sure I got that.  And currently CID= ER is strongly coupled to
implementation details of clojur= e-mode.

You say it like it was= some design failure, but when there was just a single mode (which is th= e case like 99% of the time) there's little point to prematurely abstrac= t away such details.

I clearly wrote about integrating with CIDER, = not rewriting it.
So, again, you're really reading things = that I didn't write.

Well, you= did speak about RCP and there's nothing at the RCP level happening betw= een clojure-mode and CIDER. (all the RCP-related code is in CIDER) The A= PIs that are being used are things like "find the current Clojure namesp= ace", sexp-related functions, etc.

Then you said it's "funny" that = my ideas -- which you totally misread
-- are starting from= some naive position that you already faced
15 years ago.&= nbsp; Then you talk about your "big organization of people"
and your track record, that there's only two Clojure programmers in
this conversation, that we're not "subject experts".  I= nstead of
technical arguments, you drop videos of your pre= sentations on youtube
and links to your blog posts.

I don't want to write here again thi= ngs that I've written about in the past (or presented in the past). I fa= il to see how sharing such resources is problematic in any way. You migh= t have also noticed that most of the time I use the pronoun "we", becaus= e I certainly don't want to claim all the credit for the work done by th= e broader group of people who are part of clojure-emacs or have contribu= ted to it. And I honest don't understand why you got so hung up on "subj= ect matter experts". I'm not an expert in LSP and I wouldn't dare to lec= ture you how to do things in eglot, but I do know a bit about Clojure, n= REPL and all the Emacs packages and I happen to know what we've tried an= d didn't work out. You want to brush this aside, for reasons that are st= ill unclear to me. 

I guess I rub you = the wrong way for some reason, which seems to go both ways.

If all = this is not a paternalistic attempt at dissuasion, it's at
least odd from someone who's already said he's not interested
=
in contributing to this endeavor, and who's not really being
asked to anymore.

What= "endeavour" is that exactly? Bringing clojure-mode/clojure-ts-mode to c= ore or replacing them with 2 lines of code? And who started the conversa= tion in a hostile manner? If I didn't happen to be subscribed to emacs-d= evel I wouldn't even know what was being discussed here, given how event= s unfolded. Is it really surprising I'd be unhappy about the communicati= on on the topic so far?  

On Sun, Sep= 3, 2023, at 9:30 PM, Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora wrote:
On Sun, Sep 3, 2023 at 7:37=E2=80= =AFPM Bozhidar Batsov <bozhida= r@batsov.dev> wrote:

> I'll leave= him to speak for himself, but we've been collaborating
&g= t; a bit since the beginning and I've always intended that eventually
> clojure-ts-mode will become clojure-mode.

Oh maybe one one of the names you took will free up then= . :-)

> CIDER will support clojure-ts-mo= de - that's another things we've

Sure I got= that.  And currently CIDER is strongly coupled to
im= plementation details of clojure-mode.  So for your plans to take
place, this will require outlining the existing informal API= between
the two realities: major mode and CIDER overlay m= inor mode.  This
will be a good thing in itself, and = hopefully it will allow other
Clojure major modes to take = advantage of CIDER.

> By all means - go = and re-create CIDER as well, oh all mighty
> Wizard of = the RPC! :-)

I clearly wrote about integrat= ing with CIDER, not rewriting it.
So, again, you're really= reading things that I didn't write.

> Y= eah, I'm totally making shit up just to sound important and
> you've exposed me to the world! Shame on me!

Let's see, you wrote in your many recent messages, just as an e= xample:

  > without an understandin= g of Clojure and its tooling ecosystem
  > (and it= 's history) it's hard to make good suggestions about
 = ; > what makes sense and what doesn't.

T= hen you said it's "funny" that my ideas -- which you totally misread
=
-- are starting from some naive position that you already fac= ed
15 years ago.  Then you talk about your "big organ= ization of people"
and your track record, that there's onl= y two Clojure programmers in
this conversation, that we're= not "subject experts".  Instead of
technical argumen= ts, you drop videos of your presentations on youtube
and l= inks to your blog posts.

If all this is not= a paternalistic attempt at dissuasion, it's at
least odd = from someone who's already said he's not interested
in con= tributing to this endeavor, and who's not really being
ask= ed to anymore.

> I'm juggling more proje= cts that I have time for and the only reason
> I got in= volved in clojure-mode is that there was no one else willing
> to do the work that was required.

A= good way to help solve your problem would be to contribute it to
GNU Emacs.  I wouldn't expect to become experts overnight, = but we'd
do our best.


--2e45abac151443459fa8bc5c48a89232--