From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alexandre Garreau Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: GUI and redisplay work Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 21:29:43 +0200 Message-ID: <14226483.5uGeTH8QoZ@galex-713.eu> References: <20449522.qtuQZUKTfC@galex-713.eu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="1462"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: tomas@tuxteam.de, Arthur Miller To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Oct 29 22:03:32 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mgY67-000060-9S for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 22:03:31 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:58512 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mgY66-0005BE-At for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 16:03:30 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:57636) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mgXZb-0007jG-Hz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 15:29:55 -0400 Original-Received: from portable.galex-713.eu ([2a00:5884:8305::1]:39278 helo=galex-713.eu) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mgXZZ-0000g8-CD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 15:29:55 -0400 Original-Received: from gal by galex-713.eu with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mgXZQ-0000AW-9V; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 21:29:44 +0200 In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:5884:8305::1; envelope-from=galex-713@galex-713.eu; helo=galex-713.eu X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:278239 Archived-At: Le vendredi 29 octobre 2021, 19:34:14 CEST Arthur Miller a =C3=A9crit : > Alexandre Garreau writes: > > Le mercredi 27 octobre 2021, 19:12:36 CEST tomas@tuxteam.de a =C3=A9cri= t : > >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 06:07:53PM +0200, Alexandre Garreau wrote: > >>=20 > >> [...] > >>=20 > >> > All current Web engines derive from KHTML and Gecko, which are very > >> > old=E2=80=A6 wouldn=E2=80=99t the web engines in 2050 still derive f= rom them, given > >> > their age? > >> >=20 > >> > On the other hand, TeX has now=E2=80=99ve been around for half a cen= tury, > >> > as > >> > long as emacs, and longer than the gnu (and nowadays main or even > >> > only seriously used) implementation of emacs [...] > >>=20 > >> Before you start re-inventing the world, if I were you, I'd have a > >> look at what is "out there" already. Perhaps to contribute to it, > >> perhaps to copy it, but just perhaps to learn from it on how to > >>=20 > >> do (or not to do) things: > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_TeXmacs > >> http://texmacs.org/tmweb/home/welcome.en.html > >>=20 > >> I think Joris and the other (many!) contributors could share quite > >> a few stories... > >=20 > > I know TeXmacs and since it initially enthusiastmed me a lot (iirc I > > even talked a bit with its author during a GHM a decade ago), I > > several times tried to use it but unfortunately my computer is too > > slow to run it fluently, so I gave up trying. > >=20 > > Moreover while WYSIWYM looked like a good idea orally, using TeXmacs > > was at the same time more confusing than standard markup, and WYSIWYG > > (although I typically use WYSIWYG only in a very very limited way), > > so maybe the idea is just too innovative to be easy to grasp from a > > single software that=E2=80=99s rarely used (I rarely typeset documents > > actually, especially to print anything, and I prefer to take notes in > > text editors because I don=E2=80=99t get margins nor slowness, I just c= ompile > > them once when I export my exams to pdf). > >=20 > > Also looks like it=E2=80=99s only a text processor with it own format, = and not > > a general purpose editor, that could edit, say, HTML or TeX, or, most > > importantly, its own config files, so it=E2=80=99s nor really like emac= s, nor > > TeX :/ > >=20 > > And although it looks as good as TeX typographically, it=E2=80=99s youn= ger and > > could be less stable, but I=E2=80=99m sure there could be good ideas and > > experiment here=E2=80=A6 I just already don=E2=80=99t have the time and= attention > > capability to work on emacs as much as I=E2=80=99d like (so I still hav= en=E2=80=99t > > contributed anything), and TeXmacs would be lower priority for me. > >=20 > > Also I=E2=80=99d like first and foremost to read and understand all TeX= =E2=80=99s and > > Metafont=E2=80=99s source (especially as it=E2=80=99s heavily documente= d in its own > > favored way and made to be read that way), and understand how does GTK > > works, before to try to understand some software that uses the later > > to > > incompatibly mimmick the first. I still haven=E2=80=99t done that. An= d I > > should reread the TeXbook, but doing the exercises and reading the > > source at same time. >=20 > Have you checked out Nyxt browser? >=20 > https://nyxt.atlas.engineer/ >=20 > CL + another widget derived from khtml ... >=20 > I am quite sure someone could develop a text editor based on "web > technologies" or just in pure CL that works in Nyxt. That=E2=80=99s very very interesting, and it pretty much looks like what I = always=20 imagined when I imagined a web engine inside emacs=E2=80=A6 at least the mi= nimal=20 part of it. In the bigger pictures, it *oughts* to integrate with=20 javascript, give access to its DOM API to lisp, allow finegrained control=20 of scripts (like NoScript but more developed, like including information=20 about network/inter-site communication, which APIs are enabled, allowing=20 to let APIs to *lie* to the remote program, and, most importantly,=20 reacting to licenses and source informations, just as LibreJS, but more=20 developed (for instance involving the ability to detect obfuscation, to=20 archive executed programs, share them (if the program *really* is free=20 that=E2=80=99s anyway legal however you do it), rate them (the most readabl= e=20 (hence the most likely free (because how are you gonna know an unreadable=20 software is purposedly so or the dev=E2=80=99s just terrible?))/trustable, = the=20 least malware, the best)), support WebExtensions, including ones involving= =20 other languages (not only lisp, but also scheme, for instance (such as=20 what would have been possible with guile)), or even native/compiled ones. Talking about CL, that makes me also think that there=E2=80=99s maybe a gre= at deal=20 of loss by letting the web engine being written in C, while cl could=20 nowadays, with proper typing, be just as fast, yet with the ability to be=20 compiled at will. Along with partial evaluation, that allows a great deal= =20 of optimization and performance gain with web, as long as you visit again=20 a non-totally-changing page, and don=E2=80=99t execute a different script a= t each=20 run (which, btw, completely *disable* any benefit of free software). Maybe= =20 even up to the point where a web app could be just as fast as a native=20 toolkit (modulo any non-clearly-forseen shortcoming of lisp). Another issue with CL (and scheme too, and that=E2=80=99s a common obstacle= found=20 in TeXmacs as well), and combined with the fact it=E2=80=99s apparently sti= ll not=20 packaged into debian, discourages me to try (to seriously switch to it) is= =20 that to customize and extend it, I would have to learn a whole new system=20 than emacs=E2=80=99 one, which already has a great deal of complexity (I co= uld say=20 richness, because that complexity looks useful and justified to me), and=20 even is improvable (as no more than recently here have been discussed the=20 ability to add more metadata to packages, and in not-so-far past the one=20 to natively compile elisp). Again, guile would have been made for that,=20 if only it successfully merged with emacs. The final problem=20