From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#16155: 24.3.50; Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 16:54:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <13d75185-288f-4b71-bb80-e5af13a7f8c6@default> References: <749544c4-49e7-462f-b64c-26725cf35a59@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1387328119 13261 80.91.229.3 (18 Dec 2013 00:55:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 00:55:19 +0000 (UTC) Cc: gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org, Alan Mackenzie , rms@gnu.org To: Josh Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Dec 18 01:55:24 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Vt5Q3-0000Ml-3T for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; 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X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:82154 Archived-At: > > And yet none of that data (however flakey or incomplete) was > > considered in deciding to make this change in default behavior. >=20 > To be fair, this was debated at some length[0] and presumably > decided a couple of months ago, well before that data became > available. >=20 > [0] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2013-10/msg00407.html "To be fair", I already said that this was decided before that poll was taken. That was the main point: it was decided without benefit of any poll or automatically gathered data. If it had been decided after the wiki "poll", my guess is that there would be even fewer than 10% of the users reporting there that they use `electric-indent-mode'. Since this has been turned on by default for the duration of that "poll", one would expect more people to report it being (left) on. (Of course, many users do not use development builds, which works in the other direction.) But it's not too late to solicit user input and take it into account, as Richard pointed out. FWIW, I read (and participated in) the thread you cite. In particular, I mentioned then that there is a use for a simple just-insert-a-newline key binding, regardless of which key that might be. (Some had suggested that there was no need for this.) I said that I do sometimes use only `RET' (now it is `C-j'), to just insert a newline. (Why that use case was not obvious to some people, I don't know.) I disagree with the need for this default key swap, and the possible benefit to Emacs from it. But I do not feel strongly about that at all, as I said in that thread. It's not a big deal for a user to turn the mode off. I feel somewhat more strongly that the process followed is not the best one (insufficient attention to users - and not just emacs-devel readers). And I feel more strongly that the change is not well documented. That is the thing to correct, at this point. That, and trying better wrt the process.