bug#16750: Feedback on the manual

bug#16750: Feedback on the manual

[Gokul Kannan]

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One of the best tools and worst manual I ever came across.
 
Appreciating your effort on building such a tool.. But you have missed something in the manual part.. 


It's not at all helping.. At least, for me..


There is no point in go on redirecting users to further
pages, when they’re not done with the initial pages. It’s everywhere – The Hyperlink
to further pages.. Googling for some other manual now.. 



Thanks,
Gokul
+919738847153

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bug#16750: Feedback on the manual

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 23:00:51 -0800 (PST)
> From: Gokul Kannan <gokul_ps@yahoo.com>
> 
> One of the best tools and worst manual I ever came across.
>  
> Appreciating your effort on building such a tool.. But you have missed something in the manual part.. 
> 
> 
> It's not at all helping.. At least, for me..
> 
> 
> There is no point in go on redirecting users to further
> pages, when they’re not done with the initial pages. It’s everywhere – The Hyperlink
> to further pages.. Googling for some other manual now.. 

It would help if you could provide some specific criticism of specific
parts in the manual that made it hard for you to read it, and
explained why.  That would allow us to improve the manual.

Thanks.

bug#16750: Feedback on the manual

[Gokul Kannan]

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Thanks for taking time to write back...

One quick thing anyone could notice is.. You guys have tried to explain the various components of emac without a pic.. A big fail.. 

The intro part, I mean.. This is buffer, the last line is this, top there is a tool bar.. and so and so.. Users could easily get confused since all they could read is alphabets.. Even if they have emacs opened, it would be little misleading when you say last line.. below line.. and these sort of terms..

And the other thing i already pointed.. wasn't that specific.?  Endless hyperlinks pointing to further pages makes the guide clumsy and spoils the reading experience.

Thanks,
Gokul
+919738847153



________________________________
 From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
To: Gokul Kannan <gokul_ps@yahoo.com> 
Cc: 16750@debbugs.gnu.org 
Sent: Friday, 14 February 2014 1:12 PM
Subject: Re: bug#16750: Feedback on the manual
 

> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 23:00:51 -0800 (PST)
> From: Gokul Kannan <gokul_ps@yahoo.com>
> 
> One of the best tools and worst manual I ever came across.
>  
> Appreciating your effort on building such a tool.. But you have missed something in the manual part.. 
> 
> 
> It's not at all helping.. At least, for me..
> 
> 
> There is no point in go on redirecting users to further
> pages, when they’re not done with the initial pages. It’s everywhere – The Hyperlink
> to further pages.. Googling for some other manual now.. 

It would help if you could provide some specific criticism of specific
parts in the manual that made it hard for you to read it, and
explained why.  That would allow us to improve the manual.


Thanks.

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bug#16750: Feedback on the manual

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2014 03:59:57 -0800 (PST)
> From: Gokul Kannan <gokul_ps@yahoo.com>
> Cc: "16750@debbugs.gnu.org" <16750@debbugs.gnu.org>
> 
> One quick thing anyone could notice is.. You guys have tried to explain the various components of emac without a pic.. A big fail.. 

Yes, I guess pictures will be worth about a thousand words.
Volunteers are welcome.

> And the other thing i already pointed.. wasn't that specific.?  Endless hyperlinks pointing to further pages makes the guide clumsy and spoils the reading experience.

Did you try not to follow them?  They are only there for those who
want the details.

bug#16750: Feedback on the manual

[Gokul Kannan]

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Did you try not to follow them?  They are only there for those who
want the details. 


//I tried not to follow the endless hyperlinks, but it just spoils the reading experience.

Who would want to jump to advanced, when you have not even explained the basics yet..

Majority of people wouldn't be interested to read like this.. read page number 10 -- then jump to 200.. then come back to 11.. go till 20.. then jump to 989.. 


If you feel the details at 989 is very much needed to what you have explained at 20, then it should be page number 21 and not 989..

Finally, I would like to get my hands on emacs.. But couldn't find a proper guide yet.. Guide me with some hyperlinks/articles on emacs for beginners that you're aware of..


Thanks,
Gokul



________________________________
 From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
To: Gokul Kannan <gokul_ps@yahoo.com> 
Cc: 16750@debbugs.gnu.org 
Sent: Friday, 14 February 2014 7:44 PM
Subject: Re: bug#16750: Feedback on the manual
 

> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2014 03:59:57 -0800 (PST)
> From: Gokul Kannan <gokul_ps@yahoo.com>
> Cc: "16750@debbugs.gnu.org" <16750@debbugs.gnu.org>
> 
> One quick thing anyone could notice is.. You guys have tried to explain the various components of emac without a pic.. A big fail.. 

Yes, I guess pictures will be worth about a thousand words.
Volunteers are welcome.


> And the other thing i already pointed.. wasn't that specific.?  Endless hyperlinks pointing to further pages makes the guide clumsy and spoils the reading experience.

Did you try not to follow them?  They are only there for those who
want the details.

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bug#16750: Feedback on the manual

[Bastien]

Gokul Kannan <gokul_ps@yahoo.com> writes:

> Finally, I would like to get my hands on emacs.. But couldn't find a
> proper guide yet.. Guide me with some hyperlinks/articles on emacs
> for beginners that you're aware of..

`C-h t' may help.

-- 
 Bastien

bug#16750: Feedback on the manual

[Jay Belanger]

> //I tried not to follow the endless hyperlinks, but it just spoils the
> reading experience.
>
> Who would want to jump to advanced, when you have not even explained
> the basics yet..

I might, in some situations.  Others might not.  It's good to offer the
choice.

> Majority of people wouldn't be interested to read like this.. read
> page number 10 -- then jump to 200.. then come back to 11.. go till
> 20.. then jump to 989.. 

The majority of people wouldn't need to.  The links are for those that
want the extra information.  The choices seem to be:
  * Put all of the information up front.
    This could be offputting for those that don't want the advanced 
    information right away.
  * Don't let the users know where to get more advanced information.
    Why keep it a secret?
  * Provide the basic information, and link to more information for
    those who want it.
    It seems like a good choice to me, but you can't please everyone. 

> If you feel the details at 989 is very much needed to what you have
> explained at 20, then it should be page number 21 and not 989..

And if you think that the details at 989 aren't very much needed, but
want to let people who might be interested know where to get it right
away, a link sounds like a good idea.

> Finally, I would like to get my hands on emacs.. But couldn't find a
> proper guide yet.. Guide me with some hyperlinks/articles on emacs for
> beginners that you're aware of..

When you start Emacs, you are given a message:
   "For information about GNU Emacs and the GNU system, type C-h C-a."
Typing C-hC-a leads you to hyperlinks/articles on using Emacs (and other
information, too).  It's possible that someone doesn't know what
"C-hC-a" means (it's explained in the tutorial), but there is a Help
menu, whose first menu item is the Emacs tutorial.

bug#16750: Feedback on the manual

[Personal]

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bug#16750: Feedback on the manual

[Jay Belanger]

> I still can't think of a scenario where one would want to keep
> jumping.

...

> And yes, you can't satisfy everyone. You need not, as well.. But still
> there should be people who might feel the same way as me..

People like you don't need to jump; nobody is forced to.

> and as long as you care.. one quick suggestion would be to release a
> short user guide (different from manual) with enough pictures and no
> hyperlinks which will help people quickly to begin with, and later
> proceed with the manual in place..

Eli pointed out that pictures is a good idea.  Does the tutorial count
as a short user guide?  What about the guided tour?  Actually, the
guided tour has a lot of pictures included in it.
Since nobody is forced to use hyperlinks, there is no reason for them to
be omitted.  People who don't want them can ignore them, people who want
them can follow them.

> Regarding the 'C-h t' part.. yes the YouTube video taught me where and
> how I need to issue that command..

The Emacs Help menu also takes you to the tutorial, which tells you what
the commands do.

> I don't want this to be an argument on who's right.. but as long as
> you're ready to lend ears to some suggestions, I would once again like
> to quote the picture thing.. window, buffer or whatever terminology
> you try to explain there with alphanumeric, try with a picture
> instead. That will serve the purpose..

More pictures might be useful; currently, the Guided tour is heavily
illustrated. 

> Once again.. I really really appreciate your efforts.. though I have
> some concerns, you have did a great job there and I appreciate it..
> regarding volunteering, not sure how long it takes for me to master
> emacs, but when I do.. I would definitely contribute in ways I can..

You don't need to master Emacs to contribute; in fact, if you are trying
to help with the beginning information, suggestions from someone not
familiar with Emacs might be the most helpful.  

When Emacs starts up (unless the splash screen is turned off), there is
a list of resources for learning Emacs.  Is there anything else you
think should be there?  I would think the tutorial would be where new
users would start off.  I take it you think the tutorial should contain
images; any other suggestions?

bug#16750: Feedback on the manual

[Personal]

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bug#16750: Feedback on the manual

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

I agree that it might be nice to add more images to the Emacs manuals in
general, but I don't think there's anything to act on in this bug report
in a concrete manner, so I'm closing this bug report.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no