From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail
From: Sebastian Urban <mrsebastianurban@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs
Subject: bug#35885: 25.2; Few mistakes in Emacs Manual (+ proposals)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 12:32:36 +0200
Message-ID: <130c7584-e2ad-d521-d468-4119d462583a@gmail.com>
References: <cf31e2b2-3ad4-57f0-8847-e5f01ff35fc8@gmail.com>
 <f2fff09b-fc97-795b-dc3b-4175c48234db@gmail.com> <83k1e2tym6.fsf@gnu.org>
 <e083f8bd-8c77-3558-c373-a8d9d9ef6079@gmail.com> <835zpltme6.fsf@gnu.org>
 <d1695e2e-7f87-7493-fbd9-97cd6347d837@gmail.com> <83muiwrn2u.fsf@gnu.org>
 <1583c6b3-2421-794d-8c8b-86287ef3fd5a@gmail.com> <83tvczb236.fsf@gnu.org>
 <616312d4-0faf-0382-3f21-5b66327d8d8b@gmail.com> <83tvcx9xyl.fsf@gnu.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226";
	logging-data="187157"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101
 Thunderbird/60.7.0
Cc: 35885@debbugs.gnu.org
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jun 11 12:38:32 2019
Return-path: <bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org>
Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org
Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17])
	by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
	(Exim 4.89)
	(envelope-from <bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org>)
	id 1haeAg-000maB-Mb
	for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2019 12:38:30 +0200
Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:56108 helo=lists.gnu.org)
	by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2)
	(envelope-from <bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org>)
	id 1haeAf-0003Te-LC
	for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2019 06:38:29 -0400
Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:33644)
 by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2)
 (envelope-from <Debian-debbugs@debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1hae5Q-0006iB-3E
 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2019 06:33:05 -0400
Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71)
 (envelope-from <Debian-debbugs@debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1hae5O-0005RH-LB
 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2019 06:33:04 -0400
Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]:44507)
 by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16)
 (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <Debian-debbugs@debbugs.gnu.org>)
 id 1hae5O-0005R0-FV
 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2019 06:33:02 -0400
Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <Debian-debbugs@debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1hae5O-0004GR-8V
 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2019 06:33:02 -0400
X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org
Resent-From: Sebastian Urban <mrsebastianurban@gmail.com>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 10:33:02 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.35885.B35885.156024916616368@debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 35885
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
Original-Received: via spool by 35885-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B35885.156024916616368
 (code B ref 35885); Tue, 11 Jun 2019 10:33:02 +0000
Original-Received: (at 35885) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Jun 2019 10:32:46 +0000
Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58051 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org>)
 id 1hae57-0004Fw-TT
 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2019 06:32:46 -0400
Original-Received: from mail-lj1-f171.google.com ([209.85.208.171]:35213)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <mrsebastianurban@gmail.com>) id 1hae55-0004Fj-TF
 for 35885@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2019 06:32:44 -0400
Original-Received: by mail-lj1-f171.google.com with SMTP id x25so6459399ljh.2
 for <35885@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 11 Jun 2019 03:32:43 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; 
 h=from:subject:to:cc:references:message-id:date:user-agent
 :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding;
 bh=fTgltS89v2UXV8qEIOwCZeRUNRGWs/tq1+zSk9pNAm8=;
 b=L1xXgakgM7yP0puZogM98BsDlvbPA2LhWKEjEi3oQaewNzGGdSHwudg5fi3UrMd0qx
 AvbYe+nExBIdDvlm3WRP+hUkxGhCjdSLB6WhpwgfRECoOe4NxMV2n+GPDld6yholc3z+
 yyqLqtRlkbxOCaFuTBuCNSKD2P0k7qRnA9TEiQZNxwoT4hjn58AhA4Uj9J4x4X9b5K5e
 aqDjNJo/jdB98vHE5A0Bszrc+VRLWd8w+DIvHDGS6VHK1q7pzeqGagg1LoBSVO0L67bW
 pk5zStJQs1M6KdZx+E40wXiw5Hhqe0MNjPuxJoXPFHiiAGqLBdUV5+ibFqWs/6sPuEu1
 JPpA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
 d=1e100.net; s=20161025;
 h=x-gm-message-state:from:subject:to:cc:references:message-id:date
 :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language
 :content-transfer-encoding;
 bh=fTgltS89v2UXV8qEIOwCZeRUNRGWs/tq1+zSk9pNAm8=;
 b=ae/y//dcOeBsPH+wdZ+LTsRTKAcncz5BQTBFDR+tEV9KcKVoCWR6coDgEqf5iMkFAC
 YMhP0wq+1k95jvxxVBaeMopu4aVL4UIrmRdrbXaZlFpJ9+uLHfVtfrUR4hhTq6UK6tZ3
 /b2ke8N6XCTpiN6vRQ/61ahXBzPpZpI1QTJpG05rXogTGZBiu/a5cVMbxmAuIDCdToiC
 Lt66/XOHr4Uwej5ApDO23CAQ+JTFxXqVSWoRbPXmCOodAsa7+18/nmN05Muu0wVLeGzD
 VjrsmyKrq2byIKrjtON45AbYF0kKUbT9oXG6Y81tXwKBM7garQggyPpWY8FbJ7qi6MI/
 E2Nw==
X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWzPXnE4B4vvprFEPCETbS+z7dubmxkoBKXcISIrt4j0u8KDDZS
 7yVmANoVPYg1h5yjQdmBzaf5Hi1M
X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyHvJFJO+w1culpEh6AQK9VO2z//cDm4Oze6SpfT4uXGnHM9hDncpsIiD0TOdVQmNNrWvndLg==
X-Received: by 2002:a2e:b0ea:: with SMTP id h10mr7734601ljl.50.1560249157495; 
 Tue, 11 Jun 2019 03:32:37 -0700 (PDT)
Original-Received: from [89.161.9.216] (ip-89-161-9-216.tel.tkb.net.pl. [89.161.9.216])
 by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id
 q8sm2450000lfa.89.2019.06.11.03.32.36
 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128);
 Tue, 11 Jun 2019 03:32:37 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <83tvcx9xyl.fsf@gnu.org>
Content-Language: en-GB
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic]
X-Received-From: 209.51.188.43
X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs,
 the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/options/bug-gnu-emacs>,
 <mailto:bug-gnu-emacs-request@gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs>
List-Post: <mailto:bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bug-gnu-emacs-request@gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/bug-gnu-emacs>,
 <mailto:bug-gnu-emacs-request@gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org
Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs"
 <bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org>
Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:160355
Archived-At: <http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.bugs/160355>

> When N is negative, -N is positive, so the original text sounds
> correct to me.

Of course this way it's correct, but as you wrote few mails before
"This is a user manual, not a mathematical paper (...)" and this
(-1) x (-N) seems like unnecessary burden.  And without it
expressions like "... leaving -N spaces..." or (look below) "mark the
previous −N files" makes no sense.  Readers will more likely to
interpret this '-' as negation of "previous" word.  Just like D. Adams
wrote "(...) it's not obvious - it's easy to misread it.  Of course,
it's not possible to leave a negative number of spaces (...).
A careful reader will figure it out, but that might mean having to
read it more than once."

I was curious how it looks in other examples where 'N' is present,
here is the list:

1. In INFO @ 11.2 Commands to Mark Textual Objects:
A negative argument moves the mark back by N words.

2. In INFO @ 12.1.2 Killing by Lines:
With a negative argument −N, it kills N lines preceding the current
line, together with the text on the current line before point.

3. In INFO @ 14.2 Recentering:
A negative argument -N puts point N lines from the bottom of the
window.

4. In INFO @ 25.2 Sentences
... with a negative argument −N, it kills back to the beginning of the
Nth preceding sentence.

5. In INFO @ 26.2.2 Moving by Defuns:
‘C-M-a’ with a negative argument −N moves forward N times to the next
beginning of a defun.

6. In INFO @ 26.5.1 Comment Commands:
A positive argument N adds N delimiters, while a negative argument -N
removes N delimiters.
...
With a positive prefix argument N, it operates on N lines starting
with the current one; with a negative N, it affects N preceding lines.

7. In INFO @ 30.6 Dired Marks vs. Flags :
[at '* m']... (if N is negative, mark the previous −N files)...
...
[at '* u']... (if N is negative, unmark the previous −N files)...
...
[at '* <DEL>']... (if N is negative, unmark the next −N files)...

8. In INFO @ 30.7 Operating on Files:
(If N is negative, the command operates on the −N files preceding the
current line.)

--- end of examples ---

So, in 2., 3., 4., 5., 6.(1st), we have pattern of "negative argument
-N ... something N something..."

In 1. it's something similar but without '-N' just "negative
argument", also 6.(2nd) is something similar but 'N' doesn't have
minus sign.

But in 7. and 8. (and the one I already sent) we have "if N is
negative... something -N something".

So, after looking at more examples, I think the best idea would be to
go with the most used pattern, therefore:
    - add '-N' to 1.,
    - add minus sign do 6.(2nd),
    - replace - in 7., 8., and the one I sent - "if N is negative"
      with "with negative argument -N" then change '-N' to 'N' in the
      rest of each sentence.

There is also a problem of minus sign, or to simply put - lack of it
in 3. and 6.(1st) and the one I sent - there we can see "hyphen-minus"
(#x2d).  In other cases it is "minus sign" (#x2212).

If we agree on this I could send message with "In FILENAME.TEXI
L?-? change this line to this" if it helps you (I don't know how
to make normal patches, sorry).