From: Thomas Lord <lord@emf.net>
To: Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org>
Cc: rms@gnu.org, cyd@stupidchicken.com, lennart.borgman@gmail.com,
joakim@verona.se, emacs-devel@gnu.org, juri@jurta.org,
martin rudalics <rudalics@gmx.at>,
monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, acm@muc.de, drew.adams@oracle.com
Subject: Re: Infrastructural complexity.
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 16:00:29 -0700 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <1248130829.6404.18.camel@dell-desktop.example.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <871vobkny7.fsf@catnip.gol.com>
Re the "tear off" confusion:
I think I probably started the confusion by
bringing up tear-offs in the first place.
Sorry. My only point is that the addition
of a (probably or at least initially non-nesting)
"parent-frame" slot to frames would give a natural
model for both control panels around the side of a
window and for tear offs.
If a window system window was really 5 frames,
configurable in the ways I diagramed.... if there
were "tear off frames" from tool bars.... if
Emacs had a unified model for toolbars and menus ...
THEN I think it would be straightforward to have
Emacs extension packages that look and feel a lot
like OpenOffice Writer and Eclipse.
When (if?) Emacs pixmap buffers become richer in
functionality it could also compete against
programs like Gimp.
If (when?) Emacs had a display mode for
"SVG buffers", it could compete against drawing
programs, presentation manager programs, etc.
It would be kinda neat, from my perspective,
in that with those features - 20 years worth
of GUI toolkit designers repeating the mistakes of
their predecessors could be flushed away.
The church of Emacs would be vindicated (as
if it needs it) :-)
I also think it's pretty "doable". The 1 system
window == 5 frames thing just can't possibly be
*that* hard. The generalization of menu bars
into toolbars and hierarchical command menus
isn't huge and fits in nicely among existing
abstractions / facilities. Improved pixmap
support (e.g., "one buffer per layer" with virtual
buffers overlaying them) is a huge job but one
small step at a time can get it done. And,
sure, the notion of "SVG buffers" is a pipe-dream
and, yeah, just kind of hard to get over the first
hump to achieve something minimally useful. But
a boy can dream, can't he?
-t
On Tue, 2009-07-21 at 07:08 +0900, Miles Bader wrote:
> >> AFAIK, the problem people are trying to solve right now is a way of
> >> increasing the power of emacs _automatic_ control over window layout --
> >> burdening the user with the placement and moving of these sub-windows is
> >> exactly what we _don't_ want to do.
> >
> > In my book tearing off a window does not count as automatic control.
>
> Why do you keep talking about "tear-off windows"? They aren't the focus
> of this discussion.
>
> As I said in my previous message: [[I don't know if "tear off" windows
> are a goal or not, but tearing off a emacs sub-window is an explicit
> user action saying "ok, I as user am now assuming control over this
> sub-window."']]
>
> In other words, they are (1) not a required feature, and (2) represent
> and explicit user _escape_ from the automatic layout. The focus of this
> discussion -- AFAICT -- is the automatic layout _not_ the
> optional-and-fringe-feature of tear-off-windows. While tear-off windows
> may be an interesting feature, and kinda cool, they are not a
> particularly important feature, and are _not_ the point of the current
> conversation. It'd be fine if whatever solution is decided completely
> lacks that feature.
>
> >> They certainly don't do it well, not if you want application-specific
> >> inter-relationships between a set of different windows (which is exactly
> >> what we want).
> >
> > What's the purpose of tiling window managers when you can't tell them
> > _where_ to put your windows?
>
> [completely OT at this point, but: to place windows. By default, most
> tiling WMs, do so automatically, unless the user or the app takes the
> trouble to setup some (non-default and WM-specific) mechanism to do so.]
>
> > Tearing off a window and putting it into a separate frame is no synonym
> > for "moving" that window into a separate frame. You have to make a new
> > window and you break all overlays with a 'window property in the old
> > window's buffer and all references to that window stored in running
> > applications (although for the user the new window appears the same as
> > before). So if you consider tearing off windows "a natural thing to do"
> > you only raise false hopes.
>
> I dunno; I haven't looked at the implementation details. It doesn't
> sound particularly hard to me, offhand, to have the Emacs code move an
> internal Emacs window structure to another parent frame (preserving any
> pointers/whatever, but changing the frame pointer etc) in this case, but
> I'll have to demur from arguing about it, since I don't have any
> detailed basis on which do so.
>
> Since tear-off windows are not very important though, it doesn't really
> matter. An implementation which creates a new Emacs window inside a new
> frame seems acceptable to me as well. Or simply not having tear-off
> windows.
>
> -Miles
>
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2009-07-20 23:00 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 288+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2009-07-12 14:41 Blunderbuss ".dir-locals.el" raises everything in its path!! Alan Mackenzie
2009-07-12 16:39 ` Chong Yidong
2009-07-12 18:06 ` Alan Mackenzie
2009-07-12 18:30 ` David De La Harpe Golden
2009-07-12 21:39 ` Alan Mackenzie
2009-07-12 22:22 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-13 7:36 ` Alan Mackenzie
2009-07-13 7:50 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-17 0:18 ` Add file-locals and dir-locals (was: Blunderbuss ".dir-locals.el" raises everything in its path!!) Juri Linkov
2009-07-17 7:57 ` Add file-locals and dir-locals martin rudalics
2009-07-17 9:43 ` Juri Linkov
2009-07-18 13:48 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-18 21:54 ` Juri Linkov
2009-07-19 10:38 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-19 18:12 ` Juri Linkov
2009-07-20 12:30 ` Leo
2009-07-22 0:21 ` Juri Linkov
2009-07-22 3:49 ` Leo
2009-08-04 23:59 ` Juri Linkov
2009-08-05 1:57 ` Leo
2009-08-05 21:52 ` Juri Linkov
2009-08-05 23:14 ` Leo
2009-08-06 20:36 ` Juri Linkov
2009-08-07 1:18 ` Leo
2009-08-08 8:18 ` Dan Nicolaescu
2009-08-08 11:28 ` Juri Linkov
2009-08-08 19:31 ` Stefan Monnier
2009-08-08 20:43 ` Juri Linkov
2009-08-08 21:26 ` Leo
2009-08-08 21:45 ` Juri Linkov
2009-08-08 21:58 ` Drew Adams
2009-08-09 3:15 ` Eli Zaretskii
2009-08-09 8:29 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2009-08-09 1:21 ` Stefan Monnier
2009-07-17 15:48 ` David Kastrup
2009-07-17 23:06 ` Juri Linkov
2009-07-12 18:37 ` Blunderbuss ".dir-locals.el" raises everything in its path!! Chong Yidong
2009-07-12 21:21 ` Alan Mackenzie
2009-07-12 21:33 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-12 21:45 ` Alan Mackenzie
2009-07-12 21:48 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-13 3:23 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2009-07-13 3:51 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-13 5:07 ` tomas
2009-07-13 3:23 ` Giorgos Keramidas
2009-07-13 7:16 ` Alan Mackenzie
2009-07-13 4:24 ` Chong Yidong
2009-07-13 4:37 ` Miles Bader
2009-07-13 6:22 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2009-07-13 8:19 ` Alan Mackenzie
2009-07-13 8:45 ` Miles Bader
2009-07-13 13:13 ` Chong Yidong
2009-07-13 15:05 ` Miles Bader
2009-07-13 9:18 ` Ken Raeburn
2009-07-13 10:47 ` Jason Rumney
2009-07-13 11:42 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2009-07-13 15:11 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-13 8:25 ` Alan Mackenzie
2009-07-13 8:48 ` Miles Bader
2009-07-13 9:25 ` Chad Brown
2009-07-13 20:03 ` Juri Linkov
2009-07-13 21:15 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-14 0:44 ` Stefan Monnier
2009-07-16 0:30 ` Juri Linkov
2009-07-16 13:53 ` Stefan Monnier
2009-07-16 20:48 ` Juri Linkov
2009-07-16 21:11 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-17 3:01 ` Stefan Monnier
2009-07-17 9:42 ` Juri Linkov
2009-07-18 21:55 ` Juri Linkov
2009-07-13 9:26 ` Ken Raeburn
2009-07-13 2:08 ` Dan Nicolaescu
2009-07-13 5:09 ` Jason Rumney
2009-07-13 8:41 ` Alan Mackenzie
2009-07-14 16:22 ` Alan Mackenzie
2009-07-14 18:26 ` Stefan Monnier
2009-07-14 20:11 ` Patch: " Alan Mackenzie
2009-07-15 7:55 ` Jan Djärv
2009-07-15 19:00 ` Alan Mackenzie
2009-07-15 20:20 ` Stefan Monnier
2009-07-15 20:49 ` Chong Yidong
2009-07-18 12:51 ` Alan Mackenzie
2009-07-20 9:40 ` Jan Djärv
2009-07-20 19:43 ` Alan Mackenzie
2009-07-20 21:20 ` Jan Djärv
2009-07-14 0:32 ` Stefan Monnier
2009-07-14 6:04 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2009-07-14 6:58 ` Jan Djärv
2009-07-14 14:05 ` Davis Herring
2009-07-14 15:13 ` Alan Mackenzie
2009-07-14 15:45 ` Davis Herring
2009-07-14 19:47 ` Miles Bader
2009-07-16 0:31 ` Juri Linkov
2009-07-16 16:43 ` Drew Adams
2009-07-16 18:38 ` Stefan Monnier
2009-07-16 18:47 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-16 20:59 ` Juri Linkov
2009-07-16 21:19 ` Drew Adams
2009-07-16 21:29 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-16 22:00 ` Drew Adams
2009-07-16 20:09 ` Infrastructural complexity. [Was: Blunderbuss ".dir-locals.el" raises everything in its path!!] Alan Mackenzie
2009-07-16 20:36 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-16 20:57 ` Infrastructural complexity Juri Linkov
2009-07-16 21:28 ` Chong Yidong
2009-07-16 21:33 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-16 22:00 ` Drew Adams
2009-07-16 22:14 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-16 22:25 ` Drew Adams
2009-07-16 22:30 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-16 22:38 ` Drew Adams
2009-07-16 22:43 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-16 22:49 ` Thomas Lord
2009-07-16 22:54 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-16 23:44 ` Thomas Lord
2009-07-17 0:30 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-17 1:18 ` Thomas Lord
2009-07-17 1:29 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-17 2:21 ` Thomas Lord
2009-07-17 2:24 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-17 2:44 ` Thomas Lord
2009-07-17 2:47 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-17 17:41 ` joakim
2009-07-17 18:46 ` Chong Yidong
2009-07-17 20:13 ` joakim
2009-07-17 23:02 ` Thomas Lord
2009-07-17 23:49 ` Chong Yidong
2009-07-18 0:29 ` joakim
2009-07-20 2:38 ` Thomas Lord
2009-07-20 4:59 ` Miles Bader
2009-07-20 7:31 ` Thomas Lord
2009-07-18 0:05 ` joakim
2009-07-18 0:21 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-18 0:36 ` Leo
2009-07-18 22:06 ` Juri Linkov
2009-07-19 13:21 ` Leo
2009-07-19 15:10 ` Miles Bader
2009-07-19 20:05 ` Thomas Lord
2009-07-18 8:18 ` joakim
2009-07-18 17:11 ` Richard Stallman
2009-07-18 22:05 ` Juri Linkov
2009-07-19 0:07 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-19 18:23 ` Juri Linkov
2009-07-19 20:18 ` Thomas Lord
2009-07-19 20:57 ` Juri Linkov
2009-07-19 22:27 ` Thomas Lord
2009-07-20 0:00 ` Drew Adams
2009-07-19 21:56 ` Mathias Dahl
2009-07-19 22:21 ` Thomas Lord
2009-07-19 23:54 ` Drew Adams
2009-07-20 0:18 ` Thomas Lord
2009-07-19 23:58 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-20 0:50 ` Thomas Lord
2009-07-19 23:34 ` Drew Adams
2009-07-19 21:34 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-19 4:37 ` Richard Stallman
2009-07-19 1:14 ` Thomas Lord
2009-07-19 1:48 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-19 4:01 ` Thomas Lord
2009-07-20 5:45 ` 16 (Re: Infrastructural complexity.) Thomas Lord
2009-07-20 6:23 ` Thomas Lord
2009-07-20 9:09 ` Thomas Lord
2009-07-20 6:47 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-20 7:28 ` Thomas Lord
2009-07-20 7:34 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-20 7:38 ` Thomas Lord
2009-07-19 10:38 ` Infrastructural complexity martin rudalics
2009-07-19 11:12 ` joakim
2009-07-19 15:08 ` Miles Bader
2009-07-20 9:32 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-20 14:18 ` Miles Bader
2009-07-20 15:32 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-20 16:00 ` Chong Yidong
2009-07-20 16:30 ` Miles Bader
2009-07-20 19:02 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-20 22:08 ` Miles Bader
2009-07-20 22:45 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-20 23:00 ` Thomas Lord [this message]
2009-07-21 9:39 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-21 10:28 ` Miles Bader
2009-07-21 13:26 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-21 16:13 ` Stefan Monnier
2009-07-21 17:17 ` Thomas Lord
2009-07-21 17:25 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-22 14:34 ` Stefan Monnier
2009-07-22 14:59 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-22 18:25 ` Stefan Monnier
2009-07-23 9:26 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-23 15:12 ` Stefan Monnier
2009-07-23 15:24 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-23 17:40 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-23 18:56 ` Thomas Lord
2009-07-23 19:13 ` joakim
2009-07-23 20:49 ` Stefan Monnier
2009-07-24 8:29 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-25 4:55 ` Richard Stallman
2009-07-25 8:54 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-25 14:48 ` Stefan Monnier
2009-07-25 17:11 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-26 14:15 ` Stefan Monnier
2009-07-26 15:13 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-21 17:06 ` Thomas Lord
2009-07-22 10:12 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-22 15:32 ` Thomas Lord
2009-07-22 17:07 ` Mathias Dahl
2009-07-21 16:59 ` Thomas Lord
2009-07-21 17:25 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-21 18:15 ` Thomas Lord
2009-07-22 10:12 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-22 16:28 ` Thomas Lord
2009-07-22 18:23 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-22 19:04 ` Thomas Lord
2009-07-23 9:24 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-23 18:51 ` Thomas Lord
2009-07-23 19:17 ` joakim
2009-07-23 19:49 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-23 20:35 ` joakim
2009-07-24 1:08 ` Stefan Monnier
2009-07-24 1:20 ` Thomas Lord
2009-07-24 8:28 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-24 11:21 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-24 12:10 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-24 14:20 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-24 14:55 ` AW: " klaus.berndl
2009-07-24 16:09 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-24 18:37 ` Thomas Lord
2009-07-25 4:16 ` AW: " klaus.berndl
2009-07-25 8:06 ` Miles Bader
2009-07-25 21:13 ` Thomas Lord
2009-07-24 16:08 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-24 16:16 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-24 17:13 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-25 1:27 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-25 8:53 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-24 8:28 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-24 18:31 ` Thomas Lord
2009-07-25 8:52 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-25 14:50 ` Stefan Monnier
2009-07-25 17:12 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-26 14:19 ` Stefan Monnier
2009-07-26 15:14 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-26 17:18 ` Thomas Lord
2009-07-26 17:45 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-26 18:34 ` Thomas Lord
2009-07-27 6:40 ` martin rudalics
[not found] ` <1248710762.6165.28.camel@dell-desktop.example.co! ! m>
2009-07-27 16:06 ` Thomas Lord
2009-07-27 16:53 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-27 17:40 ` Drew Adams
[not found] ` <4A6DEC6! 4.10001@gmx.at>
[not found] ` <D86752FEC8404739B257327FE0FE8FE6@us.orac! ! le.com>
[not found] ` <4A6DEC6!4.10001@gmx.at>
2009-07-27 18:05 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-27 18:40 ` Drew Adams
2009-07-28 7:39 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-28 15:21 ` Drew Adams
2009-07-29 9:06 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-27 18:05 ` Thomas Lord
2009-07-28 7:38 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-28 15:18 ` Thomas Lord
2009-07-29 9:06 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-29 19:22 ` Thomas Lord
2009-07-30 9:07 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-30 17:01 ` Thomas Lord
2009-07-31 9:08 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-31 16:19 ` Thomas Lord
2009-07-31 16:58 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-31 17:53 ` Thomas Lord
2009-07-22 19:05 ` Thomas Lord
2009-07-23 9:24 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-18 13:49 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-16 21:48 ` Juri Linkov
2009-07-18 13:48 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-18 21:57 ` Juri Linkov
2009-07-19 0:09 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-19 5:00 ` Stefan Monnier
2009-07-19 10:38 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-19 13:06 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-19 18:31 ` Juri Linkov
2009-07-19 21:36 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-19 23:11 ` Juri Linkov
2009-07-19 23:52 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-20 9:32 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-20 14:22 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-20 18:29 ` Stefan Monnier
2009-07-19 23:14 ` Juri Linkov
2009-07-20 9:33 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-22 0:38 ` Juri Linkov
2009-07-22 2:24 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-22 10:12 ` martin rudalics
2009-07-22 14:36 ` Stefan Monnier
2009-07-14 18:21 ` Blunderbuss ".dir-locals.el" raises everything in its path!! Stefan Monnier
2009-07-13 0:02 ` Miles Bader
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