From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Thomas Lord Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: 16 (Re: Infrastructural complexity.) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 00:28:40 -0700 Message-ID: <1248074920.6319.120.camel@dell-desktop.example.com> References: <20090712180623.GA1009@muc.de> <87ocrjtafd.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <1247871746.6287.157.camel@dell-desktop.example.com> <1247966060.7410.63.camel@dell-desktop.example.com> <1247976095.7410.113.camel@dell-desktop.example.com> <1248068731.6319.107.camel@dell-desktop.example.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1248074944 13765 80.91.229.12 (20 Jul 2009 07:29:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 07:29:04 +0000 (UTC) Cc: rms@gnu.org, cyd@stupidchicken.com, joakim@verona.se, emacs-devel@gnu.org, juri@jurta.org, rudalics@gmx.at, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, acm@muc.de, drew.adams@oracle.com To: Lennart Borgman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jul 20 09:28:55 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1MSnIt-00069D-Bo for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 20 Jul 2009 09:28:55 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55243 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1MSnIs-0002EF-GO for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 20 Jul 2009 03:28:54 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MSnIm-0002EA-SI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Jul 2009 03:28:48 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MSnIi-0002Dy-EC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Jul 2009 03:28:48 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=52625 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1MSnIi-0002Dv-8a for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Jul 2009 03:28:44 -0400 Original-Received: from mx20.gnu.org ([199.232.41.8]:42329) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1MSnIh-0000Pi-IA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Jul 2009 03:28:43 -0400 Original-Received: from smtp161.iad.emailsrvr.com ([207.97.245.161]) by mx20.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1MSnIh-0005vC-0R for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Jul 2009 03:28:43 -0400 Original-Received: from relay26.relay.iad.mlsrvr.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay26.relay.iad.mlsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 29BF11B4050; Mon, 20 Jul 2009 03:28:42 -0400 (EDT) Original-Received: by relay26.relay.iad.mlsrvr.com (Authenticated sender: lord-AT-emf.net) with ESMTPSA id 80D2C1B4048; Mon, 20 Jul 2009 03:28:40 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Evolution 2.22.3.1 X-Detected-Operating-System: by mx20.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4-2.6 X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:112811 Archived-At: On Mon, 2009-07-20 at 08:47 +0200, Lennart Borgman wrote: > On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 7:45 AM, Thomas Lord wrote: > > _______ > > _______________________________ > > | | | | > > | | | | > > | ~~~control~~~panel~~~area | > > | | | | > > |_________|_________|_________| > > | | main | | > > | ~~ | edit | ~~ | > > | | area | | > > | | | | > > |_________|_________|_________| > > | | | | > > | | | | > > | ~~~control~~~panel~~~area | > > | | | | > > |_________|_________|_________| > > > > > > > > 16 possible layouts of control > > panel frames: > > > > _______ > > |_____| NNSS 0 > > |_|_|_| > > |_____| > > > > > > _______ > > |_____| NNSs 1 > > |_|_| | > > |___|_| > > > Thanks, that made it easier to think about it. It took me a few days to come up with the NNSS notation. I knew there had to be a good notation but it was a little bit hard to find one. I'm glad it paid off. > It looks like a good approximation for text terminals and the current > Emacs GUI where we do not have floating child frames. (In OS level > terms it is child windows, of course). And it looks like an idea to > level ECB things to a more general level. Let's talk about floating child frames separately, a little later. > Is your goal making this a user-level changeable layout framework > (within these 16 layouts)? Logically it seems pretty easy with > functions like: > > - left-panel-enlarge-upwards > - left-panel-enlarge-downwards > etc. > > - hide-left-panel > - show-left-panel > etc. I was just pacing the floor thinking roughly the same. Yeah, in most cases, users get control over those 8 bits of params. > - (swap-panels 'left 'top) > This seems to be easy to implement on the elisp level, I don't see how, c.f. Miles' comments recently. I mean, you need some C-level hackery to have the "five frames in one systems window, configurable by those eight bits" but then, sure, you can make all the behaviour of that nice by hacking at the elisp level. > but I do not > know how easy it is for a user to grasp the idea. > It's such a nice simple little, almost "physical" abstraction. It's visceral. I take my inspiration from things like HP calculators and visicalc. My (subjective) instinct is that users will love it although many will need a little bit of a tutorial to grok it. (FWIW) -t