From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Andreas Politz Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: wikipedia's (ascii) math notation? emacs easy-way to translate it? Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 18:35:16 +0100 Organization: FH-Trier Message-ID: <1228412184.160589@arno.fh-trier.de> References: <87oczwkmy2.fsf@localhorst.mine.nu> <26c8eecf-4e39-4ef6-8a3c-83bdf7f1f32f@e1g2000pra.googlegroups.com> <041220080819249912%edgar@math.ohio-state.edu.invalid> <360f870b-cd64-433b-9101-603a18db0dcb@l33g2000pri.googlegroups.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1228412474 28052 80.91.229.12 (4 Dec 2008 17:41:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 17:41:14 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Dec 04 18:42:16 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1L8ID4-0005lZ-6J for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Thu, 04 Dec 2008 18:41:54 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33910 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1L8IBt-0003bo-KG for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Thu, 04 Dec 2008 12:40:41 -0500 Original-Path: news.stanford.edu!headwall.stanford.edu!news.glorb.com!newsfeed.straub-nv.de!news-2.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news.uni-kl.de!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help Original-Lines: 199 Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 143-93-54-11.arno.fh-trier.de Original-X-Trace: news.uni-kl.de 1228412228 24889 143.93.54.11 (4 Dec 2008 17:37:08 GMT) Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.uni-kl.de Original-NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 17:37:08 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Mozilla-Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (X11/20081018) In-Reply-To: <360f870b-cd64-433b-9101-603a18db0dcb@l33g2000pri.googlegroups.com> Cache-Post-Path: arno.fh-trier.de!unknown@dslb-084-059-214-191.pools.arcor-ip.net X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Original-Xref: news.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:165043 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:60368 Archived-At: Xah Lee wrote: > Xah Lee wrote: >>> TeX is proprobably not among one of the best tool among typesetting >>> professionals. > > > G. A. Edgar wrote: >> Correct. TeX is only the best tool among those typesetting >> professionals who typeset mathematics. Most typesetting professionals >> hate to do mathematics. >> >> Get a math research journal from the library. Any one. Read the >> "instructions for authors" contained there. It will say that >> manuscripts must be in Latex. A few journals may grudgingly also >> accept Microsoft Word. That's it. >> >> -- >> G. A. Edgar http://www.math.ohio-state.edu/~edgar/ > > The issue is this thread, is not “is TeX used by math publishers?” or > “is TeX good for typesetting mathematics?”. > > The question in this thread is: > > Is TeX among one of the best tool among typesetting professionals. > > My claim is that no. > > For example, if you look at Wikipedia on the article typesetting, > under their Digital Era subsection, you'll see that TeX is mentioned > only after the discussion of some 10 or so other systems. It looks to me that Tex is one of only 2 specific systems with it's own subsubsection in this subsection. > > Also, if you look into the article to see whether TeX is used other > than by math and programing tech geekers, you find this curious last > paragraph, i quote: > > TeX is a very powerful typesetting system used in many applications > other than mathematics. The Editora graphical user interface written > by D. Klutz[citation needed], using TeX as typesetting engine, offers > a powerful pagination tool for Classified Ads Newspapers and Magazines > [citation needed]. Editora is used by the major Classified Ads > Newspapers and Magazines in France[citation needed]. The 12,000 pages > landmark French dictionary Le Robert edition 2003 was typeset by TeX > in less than 10 minutes[citation needed]. > > That paragraph sounds like some TeX geeking fanatic tried to make TeX > look better on that page. Also notice the lots of “citation needed” > claims. The first sentence defensively sets out a claim. The last > sentence about Le Robert seems to pull a rabbit out of a hat. You seem to have noticed this by now and trying here to diminish this fact by attacking the people who wrote the article. I am not forwarding this to comp.text.tex. I suspect you have enough entertainment there already. -ap > > here's a full quote of the Wikipedia's article on typesetting on the > section “Digital Era” as of toda 2008-12-04. ( > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typesetting#Digital_era ) > -------------------------------------- > Digital era > > The next generation of phototypesetting machines to emerge were those > that generated characters on a Cathode ray tube. Typical of the type > was the Autologic APS5. These machines were the mainstay of > phototypesetting for much of the 1970s and 1980s. Such machines could > be 'driven online' by a computer front-end system or take their data > from magnetic tape. Type fonts were stored digitally on conventional > magnetic disk drives. > > Computers excel at automatically typesetting documents. Character-by- > character computer-aided phototypesetting was in turn rapidly rendered > obsolete in the 1980s by fully digital systems employing a raster > image processor to render an entire page to a single high-resolution > digital image, now known as imagesetting. > > The first commercially successful laser imagesetter, able to make use > of a raster image processor was the Monotype Lasercomp. ECRM, > Compugraphic (later purchased by Agfa) and others rapidly followed > suit with machines of their own. > > Early minicomputer-based typesetting software introduced in the 1970s > and early 1980s such as Datalogics Pager, Penta, Miles 33, Xyvision, > troff from Bell Labs, and IBM's Script product with CRT terminals, > replaced these electro-mechanical devices and used text markup > languages to describe type and other page formatting information. The > descendants of these text markup languages include SGML, XML and HTML. > > The minicomputer systems output columns of text on film for paste-up > and eventually produced entire pages and signatures of 4, 8, 16 or > more pages using imposition software on devices such as the Israeli- > made Scitex Dolev. The data stream used by these systems to drive page > layout on printers and imagesetters led to the development of printer > control languages such as Adobe PostScript and Hewlett-Packard's HP > PCL. > > Text typeset in Iowan Old Style roman, italics and small caps, > optimised at approximately 10 words per line, typeface sized at 14 > points on 1.4 x leading, with 0.2 points extra tracking. Extract of an > essay by Oscar Wilde The Renaissance of English Art ca. 1882. > > Before the 1980s, practically all typesetting for publishers and > advertisers was performed by specialist typesetting companies. These > companies performed keyboarding, editing and production of paper or > film output, and formed a large component of the graphic arts > industry. In the United States these companies were located in rural > Pennsylvania, New England or the Midwest where labor was cheap, but > within a few hours' travel time of the major publishing centers. > > In 1985, desktop publishing became available, starting with the Apple > Macintosh, Adobe PageMaker (and later QuarkXPress) and PostScript. > Improvements in software and hardware, and rapidly-lowering costs, > popularized desktop publishing and enabled very fine control of > typeset results much less expensively than the minicomputer dedicated > systems. At the same time, word processing systems such as Wang and > WordPerfect revolutionized office documents. They did not, however, > have the typographic ability or flexibility required for complicated > book layout, graphics, mathematics, or advanced hyphenation and > justification rules (H and J). > > By the year 2000 this industry segment had shrunk because publishers > were now capable of integrating typesetting and graphic design on > their own in-house computers. Many found that the cost of maintaining > high standards of typographic design and technical skill made it more > economical to out-source to freelancers and graphic design > specialists. > > The availability of cheap, or free, fonts made the conversion to do-it- > yourself easier but also opened up a gap between skilled designers and > amateurs. The advent of PostScript, supplemented by the PDF file > format, provided a universal method of proofing designs and layouts, > readable on major computer and operating systems. > > [edit] > SGML and XML systems > > The arrival of SGML/XML as the document model made other typesetting > engines popular. Such engines include Datalogics Pager, Penta, Miles > 33, OASYS, Xyvision's XML Professional Publisher (XPP), FrameMaker, > Arbortext, YesLogic's Prince, QuarkXPress and Adobe InDesign. These > products allow users to program their typesetting process around the > SGML/XML with the help of scripting languages. Some of them, such as > UltraXML, provide attractive WYSIWYG interfaces with support for XML > standards and Unicode to attract a wider spectrum of users. > > [edit] > Troff and Successors > Main article: Troff > > During the mid-1970s Joseph Ossanna, working at Bell Laboratories, > wrote the troff typesetting program to drive a Wang C/A/T > phototypesetter owned by the Labs; it was later enhanced by Brian > Kernighan to support output to different equipment such as laser > printers and the like. While its use has fallen off, it is still > included with a number of Unix and Unix-like systems and has been used > to typeset a number of high-profile technical and computer books. Some > versions, as well as a GNU work-alike called groff, are now open > source. > > [edit] > TeX and LaTeX > > Mathematical text typeset using TeX and the AMS Euler font. > Main article: TeX > > The TeX system, developed by Donald E. Knuth at the end of 70s, is > another widespread and powerful automated typesetting system that has > set high standards, especially for typesetting mathematics. TeX is > considered fairly difficult to learn on its own, and deals more with > appearance than structure. The LaTeX macro package written by Leslie > Lamport at the beginning of 80s, offered a simpler interface, and an > easier way to systematically encode the structure of a document. LaTeX > markup is very widely used in academic circles for published papers > and even books. Standard TeX does not provide a WYSIWYG interface, > though there are programs such as LyX and Scientific Workplace that > provide one. Another WYSIWYG editor very much inspired by TeX is > TeXmacs. > > TeX is a very powerful typesetting system used in many applications > other than mathematics. The Editora graphical user interface written > by D. Klutz[citation needed], using TeX as typesetting engine, offers > a powerful pagination tool for Classified Ads Newspapers and Magazines > [citation needed]. Editora is used by the major Classified Ads > Newspapers and Magazines in France[citation needed]. The 12,000 pages > landmark French dictionary Le Robert edition 2003 was typeset by TeX > in less than 10 minutes[citation needed]. > > Xah > ∑ http://xahlee.org/ > > ☄