From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Andreas Politz Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: learning Emacs Lisp Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 05:56:44 +0100 Organization: FH-Trier Message-ID: <1226379475.20507@arno.fh-trier.de> References: <87k5bbjzvo.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1226382085 15701 80.91.229.12 (11 Nov 2008 05:41:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 05:41:25 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Nov 11 06:42:22 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1Kzm17-0004vG-Lw for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 11 Nov 2008 06:42:21 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58571 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Kzm00-0005Ot-00 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 11 Nov 2008 00:41:12 -0500 Original-Path: news.stanford.edu!headwall.stanford.edu!news.glorb.com!news.k-dsl.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!news.belwue.de!news.uni-kl.de!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help Original-Lines: 84 Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 143-93-54-11.arno.fh-trier.de Original-X-Trace: news.uni-kl.de 1226379509 23308 143.93.54.11 (11 Nov 2008 04:58:29 GMT) Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.uni-kl.de Original-NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 04:58:29 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Mozilla-Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (X11/20081018) In-Reply-To: Cache-Post-Path: arno.fh-trier.de!unknown@dslb-084-059-112-201.pools.arcor-ip.net X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Original-Xref: news.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:164310 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:59644 Archived-At: Richard Riley wrote: > Tassilo Horn writes: > >> Richard Riley writes: >> >> Hi Richard, >> >>> [...] but Xah Lee is an excellent resource with carefully argued >>> points and practical approach to, amongst other things, eLisp usage. >> This is a joke, isn't it? > > Not in the slightest. I can only assume the bit you snipped about some > more established Emacs users disagreeing with him applies to you? Or the > tone suggests that. > >> When learning a language it's better to take a look at polished code >> that uses this language's idioms. Xah's on a crusade against even the >> most basic stuff like correct indentation... > > By correct indentation I guess you mean the established custom? I cant > disagree that customs are good but personally I think the established > custom in elisp is rather awkward to the extreme. Not that i dont try to > adhere to it :-; But even looking around the C world we see various > indentation standards and everyone is entitled to their view. A constant > style is, of course, better for everyone although it does not > immediately mean that constant style is the best. As a programmer for > years I can not even begin to understand how and why eLisp bracketing > standards became as they did other than maybe to save screen real estate > in the VT100 type days. FWIW, I think saving space is better for the eye > too in some ways but I find "at a glance" analysis of most eLisp code > almost impossible because of the standard of grouping all closing > brackets. > That darn old emacs again ! Seriously this has more to do with lisp in general than specifically with elisp. I doubt you'd find any _one_ serious programmer or author in the whole lisp community who proposes this kind of style ( each closing paren on a seperate line ). -ap >> The best resources for elisp are >> >> (info "(eintr)Top") >> >> and >> >> (info "(elisp)Top") > > For eLisp reference maybe. But I found Xah Lee's tutorial very > good. Its a programmers introduction and gets to the key points quickly > in an ordered manner and grouped in logical sections. > > *shrug* > > We all prefer different methods. But I like his practical learn by doing > approach. > >> together with the online help (`C-h ?'). All of these are included in >> emacs. > > If I might be so bold as to mention I added a context help addition which > shows you the function or variable under point as an extension to eldoc: > > http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs-fr/ElDoc#toc6 > >> And of course, you learn a language best by speaking/programming in it. >> But Drew already said that. > > Of course. But eLisp is special in that its almost unreadable to the > typical procedural programmer fluent in C/C++ etc until you know a lot > if it already. Or that was my experience. And we all have different > experiences so it does no harm to remain open as to what suits other > people. > > I found Xah Lee's tutorial very useful and feel it would certainly > benefit some others too. > >> Ah, and there's this (and other emacs related newsgroups) + #emacs on >> freenode where you can ask your questions. >> >> Bye, >> Tassilo >