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Sun, 27 Aug 2023 14:55:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface In-Reply-To: <3d5ef276-ce6b-9ff0-0c60-1da6b887b365@gutov.dev> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.111.4.27; envelope-from=bozhidar@batsov.dev; helo=out3-smtp.messagingengine.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:309369 Archived-At: --d8446c53dc5a4fc599ebe6b1c3bf4dae Content-Type: text/plain Here's another discussion that kind of frustrates me. (I'm the primary maintainer of clojure-mode) We already have clojure-mode, we've had it for something like 15 years, I've taken the time to submit to NonGNU ELPA. Not to mention that https://github.com/clojure-emacs/ is a big organization with many maintainers, so there's little risk about the long-term maintenance of any of the packages there. What's the purpose of this discussion? What's the problem that needs to be solved? There's so much tooling that currently depends on clojure-mode (and will eventually depend on clojure-ts-mode several years down the line) that creating some new mode just for the sake of doing it makes 0 sense. If someone wants to do it - be my guest. But conversations like this one are what's alienating people from Emacs's core. On Sun, Aug 27, 2023, at 4:42 AM, Dmitry Gutov wrote: > On 27/08/2023 04:35, Richard Stallman wrote: > > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > > > > > What those people think should not be a crucial issue, because writing > > > > a major mode to handle a language is not a big job. We have dozens of > > > > them in Emacs. Lots of us here would be able to replace it. > > > > > I would really not recommend increasing user confusion around which is > > > the recommended major mode, and which one is not. > > > > That argument is too vague to support any particular conclusion. > > > > If we install a command called clojure-mode in the core Emacs, that > > will in a sense be the preferred one. If you type M-x clojure-mode in > > Emacs, that is the one you'll get. > > > > We could avoid confusion with the NonGNU ELPA package by renaming > > that one. Asking to load it using its new name would make it clear > > that that's the package you want. > > NonGNU ELPA now has the package called clojure-ts-mode, it doesn't > conflict. But it's specifically for use with tree-sitter grammar. > > > > That affects many third-party packages, as well as configuration > > > snippets floating around the web. > > > > Sorry, I don't follow you. Would you please spell out what you mean? > > clojure-mode is an existing package with thousands (tens of thousands? > millions?) users and certain existing functionality. Other (also > third-party) packages rely on it for various functionality. It's not a > bare-bones major mode with basic functionality only. > > If we simply overtook the name but didn't reimplement it 1-to-1, that > would break a lot of user configurations, many existing recipes "how to > develop in Clojure with Emacs" posted around the web, not to mention > that would be an insult toward the developers of the existing package. > > There wouldn't be too much point in that either, because very few only > use the major mode for development without additional niceties like CIDER. > > --d8446c53dc5a4fc599ebe6b1c3bf4dae Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Here's another = discussion that kind of frustrates me. (I'm the primary maintainer of cl= ojure-mode) We already have clojure-mode, we've had it for something lik= e 15 years, I've taken the time to submit to NonGNU ELPA. Not to mention= that https://github.com/c= lojure-emacs/ is a big organization with many maintainers, so there'= s little risk about the long-term maintenance of any of the packages the= re. What's the purpose of this discussion? What's the problem that needs= to be solved?

There's so much tooling that= currently depends on clojure-mode (and will eventually depend on clojur= e-ts-mode several years down the line) that creating some new mode just = for the sake of doing it makes 0 sense. If someone wants to do it - be m= y guest. But conversations like this one are what's alienating people fr= om Emacs's core. 

On Sun, Aug 27, 202= 3, at 4:42 AM, Dmitry Gutov wrote:
On 27/08/2023 04:35, Richard Stallman wrote:
=
> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please c= onsider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending t= he US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
<= /div>
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's= example. ]]]
> 
>  &nb= sp; > > What those people think should not be a crucial issue, bec= ause writing
>    > > a major mode= to handle a language is not a big job.  We have dozens of
>    > > them in Emacs.  Lots of us h= ere would be able to replace it.
> 
= >    > I would really not recommend increasing user= confusion around which is
>    > the= recommended major mode, and which one is not.
> <= br>
> That argument is too vague to support any particular = conclusion.
> 
> If we install a = command called clojure-mode in the core Emacs, that
> w= ill in a sense be the preferred one.  If you type M-x clojure-mode = in
> Emacs, that is the one you'll get.
&= gt; 
> We could avoid confusion with the NonGNU EL= PA package by renaming
> that one.  Asking to load= it using its new name would make it clear
> that that'= s the package you want.

NonGNU ELPA now has= the package called clojure-ts-mode, it doesn't 
conf= lict. But it's specifically for use with tree-sitter grammar.
<= div>
>    > That affects many third-p= arty packages, as well as configuration
>  &n= bsp; > snippets floating around the web.
> 
=
> Sorry, I don't follow you.  Would you please spell = out what you mean?

clojure-mode is an exist= ing package with thousands (tens of thousands? 
milli= ons?) users and certain existing functionality. Other (also 
third-party) packages rely on it for various functionality. It's= not a 
bare-bones major mode with basic functionalit= y only.

If we simply overtook the name but = didn't reimplement it 1-to-1, that 
would break a lot= of user configurations, many existing recipes "how to 
develop in Clojure with Emacs" posted around the web, not to mention&= nbsp;
that would be an insult toward the developers of the= existing package.

There wouldn't be too mu= ch point in that either, because very few only 
use t= he major mode for development without additional niceties like CIDER.



= --d8446c53dc5a4fc599ebe6b1c3bf4dae--