bug#22595: 25.1.50; Wishlist: There should be a way to list timers

bug#22595: 25.1.50; Wishlist: There should be a way to list timers

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

When working with timers, it's very easy to get into a situation where
you've started a timer, but you don't have the timer object handy.  It
would be very nice if we had a command that would list all timers, and
have commands that would allow killing the timers.



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tags 22576 fixed
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-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#22595: 25.1.50; Wishlist: There should be a way to list timers

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org>
> Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2016 17:15:23 +1100
> 
> When working with timers, it's very easy to get into a situation where
> you've started a timer, but you don't have the timer object handy.  It
> would be very nice if we had a command that would list all timers

Maybe I'm missing something here, but the two lists timer-list and
timer-idle-list already provide you with the list you wanted.  No?

> and have commands that would allow killing the timers.

You mean, like cancel-timer?  (It's not a command, though.)

bug#22595: 25.1.50; Wishlist: There should be a way to list timers

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> When working with timers, it's very easy to get into a situation where
>> you've started a timer, but you don't have the timer object handy.  It
>> would be very nice if we had a command that would list all timers
>
> Maybe I'm missing something here, but the two lists timer-list and
> timer-idle-list already provide you with the list you wanted.  No?

Sure, the lists are there, but there isn't a user interface to list them
and kill them.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#22595: 25.1.50; Wishlist: There should be a way to list timers

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>
>>> When working with timers, it's very easy to get into a situation where
>>> you've started a timer, but you don't have the timer object handy.  It
>>> would be very nice if we had a command that would list all timers
>>
>> Maybe I'm missing something here, but the two lists timer-list and
>> timer-idle-list already provide you with the list you wanted.  No?
>
> Sure, the lists are there, but there isn't a user interface to list them
> and kill them.

I've now implemented and pushed this.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#22595: 25.1.50; Wishlist: There should be a way to list timers

[Ingo Lohmar]

On Tue, Feb 09 2016 11:02 (+1100), Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote:

> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>
>>> When working with timers, it's very easy to get into a situation where
>>> you've started a timer, but you don't have the timer object handy.  It
>>> would be very nice if we had a command that would list all timers
>>
>> Maybe I'm missing something here, but the two lists timer-list and
>> timer-idle-list already provide you with the list you wanted.  No?
>
> Sure, the lists are there, but there isn't a user interface to list them
> and kill them.



Why is this a good idea at all?  Timers are always an implementation
detail, not a user-level feature, as far as I am concerned.  We neither
have a UI for working with all overlays or text properties of a buffer,
have we?

bug#22595: 25.1.50; Wishlist: There should be a way to list timers

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Ingo Lohmar <i.lohmar@gmail.com> writes:

> Why is this a good idea at all?  Timers are always an implementation
> detail, not a user-level feature, as far as I am concerned.  We neither
> have a UI for working with all overlays or text properties of a buffer,
> have we?

Reductio ad absurdum isn't very useful as an argumentation technique.

I have often wanted to examine (and cancel) certain timers that are out
of control.  Inspecting them without a buffer like this isn't easy.  

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#22595: 25.1.50; Wishlist: There should be a way to list timers

[Drew Adams]

> > Why is this a good idea at all?  Timers are always an implementation
> > detail, not a user-level feature, as far as I am concerned.  We neither
> > have a UI for working with all overlays or text properties of a buffer,
> > have we?
> 
> Reductio ad absurdum isn't very useful as an argumentation technique.
> 
> I have often wanted to examine (and cancel) certain timers that are out
> of control.  Inspecting them without a buffer like this isn't easy.

I'm with Lars on this one.  What is an implementation detail from
one point of view, and for one user, can be a "user-level feature"
for another user.

Many Emacs users interact with Emacs at deeper levels, where a
text/overlay property is an object of concern, not just something
behind the scenes.  Likewise for other objects: processes, timers,
whatever.

And we do have UIs for working with overlays or text properties.
At least I do.  Likewise, interacting with keymaps and font-lock.

No one is obliged to use a UI that provides easier access to such
things, but that access can be useful for some Emacs users.  Some
Emacs users will never go near hexl mode, but for those who do,
it is useful.

bug#22595: 25.1.50; Wishlist: There should be a way to list timers

[Ingo Lohmar]

On Wed, Feb 10 2016 01:16 (+1100), Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote:

> Ingo Lohmar <i.lohmar@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Why is this a good idea at all?  Timers are always an implementation
>> detail, not a user-level feature, as far as I am concerned.  We neither
>> have a UI for working with all overlays or text properties of a buffer,
>> have we?
>
> Reductio ad absurdum isn't very useful as an argumentation technique.

On the contrary, it is a very useful argumentation technique, but
anyway, it is not the technique I used here.  I have just drawn a
reasonable (to me) analogy.

>
> I have often wanted to examine (and cancel) certain timers that are out
> of control.  Inspecting them without a buffer like this isn't easy.  

I do not want to prevent you from having those facilities, of course, I
just do not believe they belong into Emacs proper; maybe into a
'debug-timers' ELPA-package.  It seems to me that timers out of control
are simply bugs to find and fix.

In any case, this it not something dear to my heart, I just cannot see
any reasoning or argument for such functions.

bug#22595: 25.1.50; Wishlist: There should be a way to list timers

[Ingo Lohmar]

On Tue, Feb 09 2016 07:16 (-0800), Drew Adams wrote:

> I'm with Lars on this one.  What is an implementation detail from
> one point of view, and for one user, can be a "user-level feature"
> for another user.

Agreed.

>
> Many Emacs users interact with Emacs at deeper levels, where a
> text/overlay property is an object of concern, not just something
> behind the scenes.  Likewise for other objects: processes, timers,
> whatever.

Processes reference external entities that might be created by Emacs,
but that are, partially or entirely, beyond Emacs' control.  So there is
a good reason to offer the user a UI to list and control them.

>
> And we do have UIs for working with overlays or text properties.
> At least I do.  Likewise, interacting with keymaps and font-lock.

I am unfamiliar with those UIs, which are they?  Using terminology that
I am familiar with, we have "APIs" in the form of functions and
variables dealing with overlays and text properties.  But we do not have
commands to produce a buffer listing of all overlays used in this
buffer, with commands to delete some of them etc, or am I missing
something fundamental?  On this machine, 'M-x apropos overlay' does not
show me anything close.

>
> No one is obliged to use a UI that provides easier access to such
> things, but that access can be useful for some Emacs users.  Some
> Emacs users will never go near hexl mode, but for those who do,
> it is useful.

Not quite the same as features for examining entities (like timers) that
only exist within Emacs, I would say.

As I said in an answer to Lars, this is not a crusade to prevent the UI.
I simply have not read a good argument yet why this additional code
burden would be a good thing to have in Emacs core.

bug#22595: 25.1.50; Wishlist: There should be a way to list timers

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Ingo Lohmar <i.lohmar@gmail.com>
> Cc: 22595@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2016 15:10:07 +0100
> 
> Why is this a good idea at all?  Timers are always an implementation
> detail, not a user-level feature, as far as I am concerned.  We neither
> have a UI for working with all overlays or text properties of a buffer,
> have we?

I had the same thoughts going through my head.

At the very least, we should make this command disabled by default.
It can be extremely dangerous in unqualified hands.

bug#22595: 25.1.50; Wishlist: There should be a way to list timers

[Drew Adams]

> > Many Emacs users interact with Emacs at deeper levels, where a
> > text/overlay property is an object of concern, not just something
> > behind the scenes.  Likewise for other objects: processes, timers,
> > whatever.
> 
> Processes reference external entities that might be created by Emacs,
> but that are, partially or entirely, beyond Emacs' control.  So there is
> a good reason to offer the user a UI to list and control them.

Agreed, and the same is true for hexl mode.  But for a reason to be
good it need not require existence outside Emacs.

> > And we do have UIs for working with overlays or text properties.
> > At least I do.  Likewise, interacting with keymaps and font-lock.
> 
> I am unfamiliar with those UIs, which are they?

Well, I have some commands that let you set or examine or search etc.
such properties.

But I agree that we don't have such UIs in vanilla Emacs.
But we could, and I, for one, would welcome that.

> As I said in an answer to Lars, this is not a crusade to prevent the UI.
> I simply have not read a good argument yet why this additional code
> burden would be a good thing to have in Emacs core.

I agree that it need not be in Emacs core.  I'm just welcoming the
feature.  From my point of view it could be a 3rd-party library
on MELPA.  Or it could be in GNU ELPA.  I see no reason for it to
be in "core" vanilla Emacs, or even in vanilla Emacs.

bug#22595: 25.1.50; Wishlist: There should be a way to list timers

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2016 19:31:41 +0200
> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
> Cc: larsi@gnus.org, 22595@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> At the very least, we should make this command disabled by default.

Done.