Zone

Zone

[Almer S. Tigelaar]

Dear maintainers of my favourite editor,

Using : GNU Emacs 21.1.1 (i386-msvc-nt5.0.2195) of 2002-03-19 on buffy

Description :
I noticed an error in the "zone" package, it seems that the argument to
"zone-when-idle" is not in seconds but in 1/10ths of a second.
Reproduction:
try "M-x zone-when-idle 180"
Sit back and don't touch anything, notice that it zones out after 18
seconds, not 180 as the documentation suggests.
Remarks:
The "run-with-idle-timer" function does not exhibit this malfunction which
suggests that the problem lies within the zone package itself.
Yours sincerely,

Almer S. Tigelaar

Re: Zone

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

"Almer S. Tigelaar" <almer@gnome.org> writes:

   Using : GNU Emacs 21.1.1 (i386-msvc-nt5.0.2195) of 2002-03-19 on buffy

   I noticed an error in the "zone" package, it seems that the argument to
   "zone-when-idle" is not in seconds but in 1/10ths of a second.
   Reproduction:
   try "M-x zone-when-idle 180"
   Sit back and don't touch anything, notice that it zones out after 18
   seconds, not 180 as the documentation suggests.

i don't have access to that platform to try to debug this.

   The "run-with-idle-timer" function does not exhibit this malfunction which
   suggests that the problem lies within the zone package itself.

this may be true but it's difficult to tell from the information given.

i suggest trying a more recent emacs.  if the problem persists, could you
write a small test case using run-with-idle-timer and describe its behavior
more precisely?

thi

Re: Zone

[Jason Rumney]

ttn@glug.org (Thien-Thi Nguyen) writes:

> "Almer S. Tigelaar" <almer@gnome.org> writes:
> 
>    Using : GNU Emacs 21.1.1 (i386-msvc-nt5.0.2195) of 2002-03-19 on buffy
> 
>    I noticed an error in the "zone" package, it seems that the argument to
>    "zone-when-idle" is not in seconds but in 1/10ths of a second.
>    Reproduction:
>    try "M-x zone-when-idle 180"
>    Sit back and don't touch anything, notice that it zones out after 18
>    seconds, not 180 as the documentation suggests.
> 
>    The "run-with-idle-timer" function does not exhibit this malfunction which
>    suggests that the problem lies within the zone package itself.
> 
> this may be true but it's difficult to tell from the information given.
> 
> i suggest trying a more recent emacs.  if the problem persists, could you
> write a small test case using run-with-idle-timer and describe its behavior
> more precisely?

I thought I had reproduced the problem with zone in 21.2 on Windows
2000, and current CVS HEAD on GNU/Linux.  But it turns out from
studying the code that my testing methodology was at fault.

My patience does not stretch to 3 minutes, so I first tried 20
seconds.  When that worked I tried again with 180, and thought I was
seeing this bug.  But in fact, calling zone-when-idle a second time
is a no-op.  This was somewhat unexpected, I expected the timer
to be changed to the new value.

--
Jason Rumney

Re: Zone

[Richard Stallman]

    My patience does not stretch to 3 minutes, so I first tried 20
    seconds.  When that worked I tried again with 180, and thought I was
    seeing this bug.  But in fact, calling zone-when-idle a second time
    is a no-op.

That is a bug, so I fixed it.
Thanks.

Re: Zone

[Almer S. Tigelaar]

Dear Thien-Thi,

(sorry for the late reply)

On Wed, 2002-06-12 at 23:03, Thien-Thi Nguyen wrote:
>    I noticed an error in the "zone" package, it seems that the argument to
>    "zone-when-idle" is not in seconds but in 1/10ths of a second.
>    Reproduction:
>    try "M-x zone-when-idle 180"
>    Sit back and don't touch anything, notice that it zones out after 18
>    seconds, not 180 as the documentation suggests.
>
> i suggest trying a more recent emacs.  if the problem persists, could you
> write a small test case using run-with-idle-timer and describe its behavior
> more precisely?

After some tinkering I think i've found the problem. I've tested this with
GNU Emacs 21.2.1

The problem was that the "zone" function calls "zone-when-idle" with
"zone-idle" as argument for the seconds. This doesn't work to well when
a user chooses to invoke the "zone-when-idle" function and pass the
number of seconds to it.

What happens when doing "M-x zone-when-idle" and entering 60 seconds as
idle time is this :
(1) "zone-when-idle" sets up an idle timer which is invoked after 60
    seconds.
(2) After 60 seconds of idle time the "zone" function is actually 
    invoked.
(3) At the end of the "zone" function the "zone-when-idle" function is
    called with an argument of "zone-idle" seconds (which is still at
    the default value of "20")
(4) "zone-when-idle" sets up an idle timer which is invoked after 20
    seconds of idle time.
(5) Now, after 20 seconds of idle time the "zone" function is invoked
    again.

Obviously not good, the user would expect the idle timer to trigger
after 60 seconds, not 60 the first time and 20 all other times.

There are a couple of solutions to this problem :
(1) When using the "zone-when-idle" function also set the "zone-idle" 
    variable, like :
    (setq zone-idle 180)
    (zone-when-idle 180)
(2) Explicitely set the "zone-idle" variable in the "zone-when-idle"   
    function (use the value the user passed, the "secs" variable)
(3) Remove the call to "zone-when-idle" at the end of the "zone"
    functions, if the idle timer works correctly it should repeat the
    invocation every  "secs" seconds anyway.

Yours sincerely,

Almer S. Tigelaar

zone

[A Soare]

1. emacs -Q

2. M-x zone

3. In *Messages* I see 

Loading zone...done
Zoning...sorry

What is it good for? I do not understand 

Moreover, why do you insert unuseful libraries in the standard emacs? I never used python-mode for example.

Re: zone

[Lennart Borgman (gmail)]

A Soare wrote:
> 1. emacs -Q
> 
> 2. M-x zone
> 
> 3. In *Messages* I see 
> 
> Loading zone...done
> Zoning...sorry
> 
> What is it good for? I do not understand 

Seems to be some game. I have never had time (and interest) to test it.

> Moreover, why do you insert unuseful libraries in the standard emacs? I never used python-mode for example.


I do not understand what you mean. Maybe you did not really express what 
you wanted to say about python-mode. Do you think that the python-mode 
that comes with Emacs is not useful?

Re: zone

[Jason Rumney]

A Soare wrote:
> Moreover, why do you insert unuseful libraries in the standard emacs? I never used python-mode for example.
>   

Fortunately, you are not the only user of Emacs.

Re: zone

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

() A Soare <alinsoar@voila.fr>
() Tue,  8 May 2007 22:32:10 +0200 (CEST)

   1. emacs -Q

   2. M-x zone

   3. In *Messages* I see 

   Loading zone...done
   Zoning...sorry

   What is it good for?

it is a good apologist, apparently.

to learn more about emacs' mechanisms
for keeping svelte, see:

(info "(emacs)Lisp Libraries")
(info "(emacs)Init Examples")

thi

Re: zone

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: A Soare <alinsoar@voila.fr>
> Date: Tue,  8 May 2007 22:32:10 +0200 (CEST)
> 
> 1. emacs -Q
> 
> 2. M-x zone
> 
> 3. In *Messages* I see 
> 
> Loading zone...done
> Zoning...sorry

Works for me.  "sorry" usually means that you touched some key and
zone stops.  If you indeed touched a key, then that is how it is
supposed to work.

> What is it good for?

It plays funny games with your display.

Re: zone

[A Soare]

> > 1. emacs -Q
> > 
> > 2. M-x zone
> > 
> > 3. In *Messages* I see 
> > 
> > Loading zone...done
> > Zoning...sorry
> > 
> > What is it good for? I do not understand 
> 
> Seems to be some game. I have never had time (and interest) to test it.
> 
> > Moreover, why do you insert unuseful libraries in the standard emacs? I never used python-mode for example.
> 
> 
> I do not understand what you mean. Maybe you did not really express what 
> you wanted to say about python-mode. Do you think that the python-mode 
> that comes with Emacs is not useful?
> 

Python-mode is very useful for those that use python. For me it is unuseful and it just occupies memory and space with no reason.
I think that it would be better to load in emacs just the useful things.


I wrote these 2 problems in one message because for me the games were and will ever be un-useful.

Re: zone

[Taylor Venable]

On Tue,  8 May 2007 23:36:26 +0200 (CEST)
A Soare <alinsoar@voila.fr> wrote:

> Python-mode is very useful for those that use python. For me it is
> unuseful and it just occupies memory and space with no reason. I
> think that it would be better to load in emacs just the useful things.
> 
> I wrote these 2 problems in one message because for me the games were
> and will ever be un-useful.

If you're that worried about wasting space, then why are you using
Emacs?  :)  It won't expend (hardly any) memory unless you actually load
python-mode, probably by opening Python source code, or load the game.
If it really bothers you that much, and since it is free software, you
can recompile Emacs to not include Python mode or any games.

-- 
Taylor Venable
taylor@metasyntax.net
http://www.metasyntax.net/

Re: zone

[Henrik Enberg]

> Python-mode is very useful for those that use python. For me it is
> unuseful and it just occupies memory and space with no reason.

python.el uses less than a cent's worth of hard disk space...

> I think that it would be better to load in emacs just the useful things.

They're not loaded unless you use them.

> I wrote these 2 problems in one message because for me the games were
> and will ever be un-useful.

Well, your needs are not the needs of everyone.

Re: zone

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: A Soare <alinsoar@voila.fr>
> Date: Tue,  8 May 2007 23:36:26 +0200 (CEST)
> 
> Python-mode is very useful for those that use python. For me it is unuseful and it just occupies memory and space with no reason.

Are you seriously complaining about 90KB of disk space?  If it bothers
you, you can always delete it.

> I think that it would be better to load in emacs just the useful things.

Python mode is not loaded until you use it.  It just sits on disk
doing no harm at all.

> I wrote these 2 problems in one message because for me the games were and will ever be un-useful.

They are useful for others.