From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Instead of pcase Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2023 13:58:08 +0200 Message-ID: <0ace918f-75f4-fd4d-5d3c-640c4ba0ee78@gutov.dev> References: <21eda04f-b974-0c56-ce6c-4fc0810e4e13@gutov.dev> <87edgkouoa.fsf@gnu.org> <8a43628e-0c00-2690-bd86-f355674d218b@gutov.dev> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="34789"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.13.0 Cc: jemarch@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Nov 22 12:59:19 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1r5lsz-0008kM-ME for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 22 Nov 2023 12:59:18 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r5ls5-0000oM-OZ; Wed, 22 Nov 2023 06:58:21 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r5ls3-0000mw-H0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 22 Nov 2023 06:58:19 -0500 Original-Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.29]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r5ls1-0002Qk-IM; Wed, 22 Nov 2023 06:58:19 -0500 Original-Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 150DB5C0211; Wed, 22 Nov 2023 06:58:12 -0500 (EST) Original-Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 22 Nov 2023 06:58:12 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gutov.dev; h=cc :cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:content-type:date :date:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to; s=fm3; t= 1700654292; x=1700740692; bh=wU9flpUPq8g3C+sXGjRQrnSknDmhPhlV03s C/0coKf8=; b=pBM+OamM6ETahyIV9XBXpCLV09aK5xXd4roJ4rUk2uC2vRssxVC T2eTqjBY9dkZjON0QDn9gXrRoauRD/Pzg44l5LxUezAGXgiG4lOiVUS0XeNCAhAK wqnzOjACT96jgzZ9ELcx/0cQm6JKvZzGcmzHEx4F561NBuHODyS7h08rbMHOXoHI 6teJuvn/vXYL6TL/q2OvAfyjEgATlQ8oc6qqEWddhj2NE5lidrh7bX8C0EfVllxG 08ip7MTNH4auOQxGQ2ET6j1sJyoXNF4J5LWb23NwlsPiYUT7416tDDrAVJc7VeJi cQIwwUgEEYzyKTD3sgyz6fdXl1AJzIB9u0Q== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:content-type:date:date:feedback-id:feedback-id :from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; t= 1700654292; x=1700740692; bh=wU9flpUPq8g3C+sXGjRQrnSknDmhPhlV03s C/0coKf8=; b=DF95+zsM3f8HtZbmvDGdpG6pAfOC6LbTwdX65oKM+YP99hVrx8I 456aMbezzcKuJrspSPVRCRgXU4YwmdHG41660iGRFJII3ADJWvCUueIh7J86qkix GFH4KqJfbcKWPMwZPVxyD7Qx5sduoNMucbtY6a6h9JVQehaVKC4DM+1+mUFFfeES cMbuyQ2tu93CgSn6OE56MPgzBK87YFOsbvdku/nS+ZbGekU0uL0i0EMgDIQGrqFg s8FvXg0ZIwV46aNHBm8jTb/ESvQqk3ZukZfbTZTdjx9NbN1GSJZ24liwtrZFGh49 fB8xp927G7ktTPPmBc3CTJG75CaK9G6cV6w== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvkedrudehuddgfeegucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefkffggfgfuvfevfhfhjggtgfesth ejredttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepffhmihhtrhihucfiuhhtohhvuceoughmihhtrhihsehg uhhtohhvrdguvghvqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeeigfetveehveevffehledtueekie eikeeufeegudfgfeeghfdulefgfeevledvveenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecu rfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpegumhhithhrhiesghhuthhovhdruggvvh X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i0e71465a:Fastmail Original-Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Wed, 22 Nov 2023 06:58:10 -0500 (EST) Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.111.4.29; envelope-from=dmitry@gutov.dev; helo=out5-smtp.messagingengine.com X-Spam_score_int: -44 X-Spam_score: -4.5 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.5 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.672, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:313129 Archived-At: On 22/11/2023 04:59, Richard Stallman wrote: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > > In Lisps, most of the complexity simply moved to standard library > > (and/or other libraries as well). > > This seems to presume a principle of "conservation of complexity", but > that is not so. Not exactly. I just tried to explain that the notion of Lisp having "simple" syntax doesn't mean that everything about it can or should be just as simple. > Complexity doesn't simply "move". For example, pcase > replicates (with differences) complexity that already existed in > various Lisp functions and constructs. Indeed. The goal there (and in such cases in general) is to concentrate specific bits of complexity inside advanced named constructs (functions or macros) that are designed in a way that reduces the total complexity in the code which uses them. Then you (roughly) only need to understand the construct (which is a fixed amount of complexity) and then every piece of code using it (as long as it's used appropriately) will incur lower mental overhead than if it were implemented using just the basic primitives. Reducing the total effort required to understand a series of such programs.