From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: delete-selection-mode Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 04:05:40 -0700 Message-ID: <0F1993E5BFE847B4AB312467B0CEC7F0@us.oracle.com> References: <87ocitw2dl.fsf@stupidchicken.com><201003130001.o2D01FFQ003489@godzilla.ics.uci.edu><87vdd1yqe4.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <87eijjzrkd.fsf_-_@mail.jurta.org><20100317143519.GB4381@muc.de><87vdcui6oh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp><20100318101223.GB2704@muc.de><400FB8EA6FB8499AB34297A77E9DCB49@us.oracle.com><87bpelxyu7.fsf@lola.goethe.zz><87vdcsvn2h.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <871vfgviny.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1268998421 10490 80.91.229.12 (19 Mar 2010 11:33:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 11:33:41 +0000 (UTC) To: "'David Kastrup'" , Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Mar 19 12:33:36 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NsaSJ-0008DQ-0d for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 12:33:31 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52112 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NsaSH-00046T-MH for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 07:33:29 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Nsa2p-0003PG-GH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 07:07:11 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=46654 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Nsa2o-0003Ow-09 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 07:07:11 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Nsa2m-00006Q-20 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 07:07:09 -0400 Original-Received: from acsinet12.oracle.com ([141.146.126.234]:47796) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Nsa2l-00006F-Ru; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 07:07:08 -0400 Original-Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by acsinet12.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id o2JB75ka006262 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 19 Mar 2010 11:07:07 GMT Original-Received: from acsmt353.oracle.com (acsmt353.oracle.com [141.146.40.153]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id o2IKlbj1028438; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 11:07:05 GMT Original-Received: from abhmt002.oracle.com by acsmt354.oracle.com with ESMTP id 99966401268996742; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 04:05:42 -0700 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/24.5.179.75) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 04:05:42 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <871vfgviny.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> Thread-Index: AcrHO0ZOTXNN2u5nQkmnPLA1DGlbUwAAFdBw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Source-IP: acsmt353.oracle.com [141.146.40.153] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090208.4BA35AD9.00D1:SCFMA4539814,ss=1,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:122269 Archived-At: > Then perhaps you should leave the discussion until those that remember > life without delete-selection-mode have sorted out the problems with > making it the default. No, please, don't make it the default. Don't go near it. Just leave it alone. Go back to your Real Emacs Way. You'll be happy and so will everyone else. The last thing d-s-mode needs is you sorting it out and fixing its "problems". Don't even think about it. D-s-mode doesn't need to be the default for Emacs. It just needs to exist. Enough users will discover it. It ain't broke, so please don't try to fix it. Let those who do use it and like it worry about whether it needs improvement. Fixer friends like you it doesn't need. If you want to start a new mode that does something like d-s-mode but solves all of your problems, fine; go for it. But please leave d-s-mode itself alone. Then people can vote on your new mode as the default. You might even get my vote. ;-) > The Emacs way of getting a feature activated by default is > not throwing a tantrum until everybody gives in, but making > the feature work smoothly with other use cases and workflows. > > That is the way to overcome resistance. Throwing tantrums, > in contrast, distracts from the work, thoughts, and discussions > that are needed to properly make a feature fit in as a part > with the rest of Emacs. No one is throwing a tantrum, except possibly you, David. I did not offer the proposal to make d-s-mode the default. Juri did. I simply voted yes. Only later did I reply to some arguments I found faulty and support the proposal with some positive reasons. >From the outset, I warned that the discussion might go round and round like this, precisely because I saw it happen before. I predicted we'd hear the same old stuff about keyboard vs mouse and Real Emacs and Real Emacs Users vs the Inferior Others. And sure enough, your very first post to the thread confirmed that. (1) You claimed that "it inteferes with Emacs-typical editing" (meaning how you use Emacs). And (2) you painted Juri's question (which was simply whether new-user problems discovering d-s-mode might be reason enough to enable d-s-mode by default) as being really "How can we make beginners shut up" and not "How can we make beginners more productive with Emacs". I can't speak for Juri, but from my view: (1) D-s-mode _is_ Emacs-typical editing. There are many kinds of Emacs-typical editing. And (2) the idea behind making d-s-mode the default was not to make beginners shut up but precisely to help beginners (and others) be more productive with Emacs. You said the same kinds of things about the proposal to make t-m-mode the default, BTW: it wasn't Emacs-typical editing; it just dumbed things down to make beginners shut up. You were wrong then and you're wrong about that now. That kind of attitude expresses arrogance toward people who use Emacs differently from you. > Your point is abundantly clear: "I want delete-selection-mode enabled > and nothing else changed". No, actually, my point is that I agree with those who think that d-s-mode would be a better default behavior. That's all. Just a vote. To try to convince those inclined to vote no, I countered some of their arguments and provided some arguments supporting the proposal. But I can live without the default change. The change is not for _me_: I already use d-s-mode. If d-s-mode is not to be the default, then yes, I'm in favor of leaving things the way they are: t-m-mode enabled by default. I'm not in favor of your proposal to disable t-m-mode (again). And I'm not in favor of coming up with a compromise d-s-mode hybrid or other new mix (as was done for mouse selection) intended to mollify those who hate d-s-mode. And I'm not in favor of modifying d-s-mode itself. And yes, I will present arguments against any such proposals, if I have any. > you might want to stay off this discussion for a week or so and see > whether people make progress with plans about moving Emacs towards a > state where delete-selection-mode as a default is less of a > bad idea as it is now. It is obvious that you are not wanting to > participate in any such discussion in a constructive way. I will participate in any discussion I like. Juri's proposal was to enable d-s-mode by default. I voted yes. If the decision is no, that's fine. If there is another proposal, for some hybrid as the default, I'll likely vote no, but I'll judge the specifics on their merits. And I'll give my arguments in support or against, whether you want to hear them or not. You say you want new users to find out about the real Emacs Way. Well so do I. I would like them to learn about the real d-s-mode (whether or not it becomes the default), and not some half-baked compromise intended to make things palatable to people who aren't really interested in what d-s-mode has to offer anyway. No one is forcing d-s-mode as the default. If you can't accept that proposal, then please just leave it alone.