RE: delete-selection-mode

["Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com>]

> Then perhaps you should leave the discussion until those that remember
> life without delete-selection-mode have sorted out the problems with
> making it the default.

No, please, don't make it the default. Don't go near it. Just leave it alone. Go
back to your Real Emacs Way. You'll be happy and so will everyone else. The last
thing d-s-mode needs is you sorting it out and fixing its "problems". Don't even
think about it.

D-s-mode doesn't need to be the default for Emacs. It just needs to exist.
Enough users will discover it. It ain't broke, so please don't try to fix it.
Let those who do use it and like it worry about whether it needs improvement.
Fixer friends like you it doesn't need.

If you want to start a new mode that does something like d-s-mode but solves all
of your problems, fine; go for it. But please leave d-s-mode itself alone. Then
people can vote on your new mode as the default. You might even get my vote. ;-)

> The Emacs way of getting a feature activated by default is 
> not throwing a tantrum until everybody gives in, but making
> the feature work smoothly with other use cases and workflows.
> 
> That is the way to overcome resistance.  Throwing tantrums, 
> in contrast, distracts from the work, thoughts, and discussions
> that are needed to properly make a feature fit in as a part
> with the rest of Emacs.

No one is throwing a tantrum, except possibly you, David.

I did not offer the proposal to make d-s-mode the default. Juri did. I simply
voted yes. Only later did I reply to some arguments I found faulty and support
the proposal with some positive reasons.

From the outset, I warned that the discussion might go round and round like
this, precisely because I saw it happen before. I predicted we'd hear the same
old stuff about keyboard vs mouse and Real Emacs and Real Emacs Users vs the
Inferior Others.

And sure enough, your very first post to the thread confirmed that. (1) You
claimed that "it inteferes with Emacs-typical editing" (meaning how you use
Emacs). And (2) you painted Juri's question (which was simply whether new-user
problems discovering d-s-mode might be reason enough to enable d-s-mode by
default) as being really "How can we make beginners shut up" and not "How can we
make beginners more productive with Emacs".

I can't speak for Juri, but from my view: (1) D-s-mode _is_ Emacs-typical
editing. There are many kinds of Emacs-typical editing. And (2) the idea behind
making d-s-mode the default was not to make beginners shut up but precisely to
help beginners (and others) be more productive with Emacs.

You said the same kinds of things about the proposal to make t-m-mode the
default, BTW: it wasn't Emacs-typical editing; it just dumbed things down to
make beginners shut up. You were wrong then and you're wrong about that now.
That kind of attitude expresses arrogance toward people who use Emacs
differently from you.

> Your point is abundantly clear: "I want delete-selection-mode enabled
> and nothing else changed".

No, actually, my point is that I agree with those who think that d-s-mode would
be a better default behavior. That's all. Just a vote.

To try to convince those inclined to vote no, I countered some of their
arguments and provided some arguments supporting the proposal. But I can live
without the default change. The change is not for _me_: I already use d-s-mode.

If d-s-mode is not to be the default, then yes, I'm in favor of leaving things
the way they are: t-m-mode enabled by default.

I'm not in favor of your proposal to disable t-m-mode (again). And I'm not in
favor of coming up with a compromise d-s-mode hybrid or other new mix (as was
done for mouse selection) intended to mollify those who hate d-s-mode. And I'm
not in favor of modifying d-s-mode itself.

And yes, I will present arguments against any such proposals, if I have any.

> you might want to stay off this discussion for a week or so and see
> whether people make progress with plans about moving Emacs towards a
> state where delete-selection-mode as a default is less of a 
> bad idea as it is now.  It is obvious that you are not wanting to 
> participate in any such discussion in a constructive way.

I will participate in any discussion I like. 

Juri's proposal was to enable d-s-mode by default. I voted yes. If the decision
is no, that's fine.

If there is another proposal, for some hybrid as the default, I'll likely vote
no, but I'll judge the specifics on their merits. And I'll give my arguments in
support or against, whether you want to hear them or not.

You say you want new users to find out about the real Emacs Way. Well so do I. I
would like them to learn about the real d-s-mode (whether or not it becomes the
default), and not some half-baked compromise intended to make things palatable
to people who aren't really interested in what d-s-mode has to offer anyway.

No one is forcing d-s-mode as the default. If you can't accept that proposal,
then please just leave it alone.