From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Summer Emacs Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs Newbie Info Pages Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2024 18:49:19 +0200 Message-ID: <0C6E4C4C-CC20-49CC-9498-2448C0645D8D@summerstar.me> References: <87r09owat8.fsf@gmail.com> <289AFFBC-16A4-4728-B702-D99045B6D7FF@summerstar.me> <86a5g6be5n.fsf@gnu.org> <867cbab7z8.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3818.100.11.1.3\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="40076"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: rms@gnu.org, suhailsingh247@gmail.com, corwin@bru.st, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Sep 17 18:50:00 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1sqbOp-000ADX-NS for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 17 Sep 2024 18:49:59 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sqbOW-0005mH-27; Tue, 17 Sep 2024 12:49:40 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sqbOU-0005m6-0M for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Sep 2024 12:49:38 -0400 Original-Received: from st43p00im-ztbu10063701.me.com ([17.58.63.178]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sqbOS-0001CB-Cs for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Sep 2024 12:49:37 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=summerstar.me; s=sig1; t=1726591775; bh=Sk+V+zNVBqIpSNaJq55ZGCbfez/A3QFDwjCWj+GxZNQ=; h=Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From:Date:Message-Id:To; b=QCHS4JWyym3dXq774vBFczxwlMFDvaE6hNcNuAmcNjtR9JDkTo7LmJgpVdIU5mbAx XNcl3/fx3rM+bwtLF7jWazEUBJ8JahX0Tv0cIDv443TjHMgCbg6i82TLr09x0qj0qT qf0P2rBDocCoKlQ42S7OKjgOSbmZ5UYGndt/uuQoTv65uvk20lkftF6kgvohdePDW3 17h1k/5LBhqz4CygxHMjI8U0MuYRf2dFDMDgOhdP/zDj06YM+OqnxmjRjeBLeo55xS Rz511jI9D3fS8Gk2zi3vgsvPcb7pW1+UaBAb/CUbD1Yle5I0xSkwD6P3n9NzHwSiDm UpXDC0/svpdRA== Original-Received: from smtpclient.apple (st43p00im-dlb-asmtp-mailmevip.me.com [17.42.251.41]) by st43p00im-ztbu10063701.me.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 96545D00639; Tue, 17 Sep 2024 16:49:32 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: <867cbab7z8.fsf@gnu.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3818.100.11.1.3) X-Proofpoint-GUID: iTULsPOw7wzjlcgnMs3uf2Uj4F5fWQiz X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: iTULsPOw7wzjlcgnMs3uf2Uj4F5fWQiz X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.272,Aquarius:18.0.1051,Hydra:6.0.680,FMLib:17.12.60.29 definitions=2024-09-17_08,2024-09-16_01,2024-09-02_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 phishscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 clxscore=1030 malwarescore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.19.0-2308100000 definitions=main-2409170122 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=17.58.63.178; envelope-from=summeremacs@summerstar.me; helo=st43p00im-ztbu10063701.me.com X-Spam_score_int: -37 X-Spam_score: -3.8 X-Spam_bar: --- X-Spam_report: (-3.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-1.048, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:323701 Archived-At: > On Sep 17, 2024, at 17:44, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >=20 >> From: Summer Emacs >> Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2024 16:12:17 +0200 >> Cc: rms@gnu.org, >> suhailsingh247@gmail.com, >> corwin@bru.st, >> emacs-devel@gnu.org >>=20 >> 1) My proposal is for new people to have a landing set of pages to = click through, explaining things >> in a clear and easy way for them to understand without the instant = introduction of concepts which >> are alien to them. I think the help files are a great thing, but they = are overwhelming for new >> people. I know this because I=E2=80=99ve shown it to people in my = circles who don=E2=80=99t know much of anything >> about how to use a computer, but still use applications such as Word = or Pages to type up things >> for work/classes. They couldn=E2=80=99t understand the first thing = about the help pages. >>=20 >> I think Richard asked about the difference between what you propose >> and the existing Emacs tutorial (which can be read by typing "C-h = t"). >> The tutorial is not what you call "help files", and is written in a >> different style and with different goals in mind. >>=20 >> Or are you saying that the tutorial is also overwhelming, in >> particular due to introducing too many alien concepts? If so, that >> might be worth a separate discussion, because the tutorial is not >> supposed to be hard to read and understand. >>=20 >> I did mention the tutorial but I said I think it=E2=80=99s fantastic. = I was speaking about the other help files in general. >> Such as clicking on the =E2=80=9CEmacs guided tour=E2=80=9D - it=E2=80=99= s very non-newbie friendly. It=E2=80=99s a great resource but I think we >> need something better for brand new users who don=E2=80=99t have a = coding background. >=20 > OK, but then Richard's question still stands, and it would be good to > hear your view on the difference between what you propose and the > tutorial. Because I could think about a few follow-up questions, such > as: >=20 > . can we extend the tutorial with the information you would like to > have in the document you propose? > . maybe make what you propose to be "tutorial, part2"? > . or how about a tutorial whose audience is non-programmers? >=20 > etc. You kinda have to read what I=E2=80=99ve written so far. =F0=9F=98=80 The audience is literally for non-programmers. =F0=9F=99=83 Summer Emacs =E2=98=80=EF=B8=8F=F0=9F=90=83=20