From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: eval-after-load not harmful after all (Was: Re: Why js-2mode?) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 17:46:15 -0700 Message-ID: <0AE832B5AEFE4453BB3E46F20DA29DE8@us.oracle.com> References: <7b501d5c0908091634ndfba631vd9db6502db301097@mail.gmail.com><998B83F771474211A37D1E2B6A497B61@us.oracle.com> <878whr9o4c.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1249951607 10538 80.91.229.12 (11 Aug 2009 00:46:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 00:46:47 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, 'Carsten Dominik' , 'Daniel Colascione' , 'Leo' , 'CHENG Gao' To: "'Stephen J. Turnbull'" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Aug 11 02:46:39 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1MafVf-0006QT-3S for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 11 Aug 2009 02:46:39 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44551 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1MafVe-0006MC-19 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 10 Aug 2009 20:46:38 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MafVZ-0006Lq-4R for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 10 Aug 2009 20:46:33 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MafVT-0006Ki-IB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 10 Aug 2009 20:46:31 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=39769 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1MafVT-0006KZ-G4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 10 Aug 2009 20:46:27 -0400 Original-Received: from rcsinet12.oracle.com ([148.87.113.124]:34757 helo=rgminet12.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1MafVT-00010w-28 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 10 Aug 2009 20:46:27 -0400 Original-Received: from rgminet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by rgminet12.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n7B0kGLQ010433 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 11 Aug 2009 00:46:17 GMT Original-Received: from abhmt004.oracle.com (abhmt004.oracle.com [141.146.116.13]) by rgminet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n7B0kKnd016505; Tue, 11 Aug 2009 00:46:20 GMT Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/141.144.161.30) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Mon, 10 Aug 2009 17:46:17 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AcoaG5FwTKwniVx2SwywcDxEOeJ4qgAAQZbw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 In-Reply-To: <878whr9o4c.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> X-Source-IP: abhmt004.oracle.com [141.146.116.13] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A010203.4A80BF5A.00AF:SCFSTAT5015188,ss=1,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:114008 Archived-At: > I have no objection to use of `eval-after-load' in user or site files > that are disabled by emacs -q. But `eval-after-load' in core files is > like smoking in an elevator next to a pregnant woman. It's very > convenient, maybe even "necessary", from the point of view of the > user of the feature, but he doesn't bear the pain of debugging a > Heisenbug that appears for the user of random-package-using-e-a-l. > > I note that all the advocates of e-a-l are package maintainers and UI > types; all the deprecators are core. This is an inherent tension, and > I think it should be resolved in favor of protecting the core. Nothing wrong with "protecting the core". The discussion was about the Elisp manual, whose target audience is not just maintainers of the Emacs core. The help and guidance there are used by a variety of programmer-users. Again, there's nothing wrong with (a) giving a general guideline, and also (b) explaining the issues and giving additional info about contexts where the guideline might not be something you would want to follow. It's about furthering understanding, not just rote learning of rules.