From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Opaque objects and Emacs documentation Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 18:49:17 +0300 Message-ID: <08717ce2-5367-2695-a2f1-9165ed34e33b@yandex.ru> References: <<20200712184908.13140.5739@vcs0.savannah.gnu.org> <<20200712184909.BBC61209B1@vcs0.savannah.gnu.org> <<7bf4d6ef-c0ec-43dc-ad5d-f6e81422ad90@yandex.ru> <<83zh84m5ws.fsf@gnu.org> <<3dd1c224-69b2-40af-5b2e-43a310253632@yandex.ru> <<83tuybmtxs.fsf@gnu.org> <<859f594b-1343-6d26-e1ac-7157c44eb56c@yandex.ru> <<83a6zyk4tt.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="2743"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Drew Adams , Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Jul 17 17:50:15 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jwScp-0000cQ-Np for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 17:50:15 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54780 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jwSco-0006qP-NW for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 11:50:14 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:45776) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jwSc3-0006Oj-JV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 11:49:27 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wm1-x330.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::330]:56071) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jwSbx-0002hl-Mc; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 11:49:27 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wm1-x330.google.com with SMTP id g75so15576201wme.5; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 08:49:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=TlGvcj/4ZFdGfvTK2EiqdHP5S587cjR37OYjvGoFdbg=; b=nWu71GxzEbwt8Wi+SVjrYjNnNHhfzJXZpSD1ueFdXdSa7xMtB5sxM/7uuuB3eX1DuB +PW27eggHwhgrjHQxgbjRFqr3VAi8x5B+A2N1YkzQ83CkK7dVIzfhZtkwTo0+BDwVeBK dhAW1qmr9J4L5yGbSOhDhBpezlmZg4kotjr9xqyVyZvKgYomTOGX8rydOElQrMInFZ7X YxV/yFjaFqTJVbg4FSApyRDkKG+wspdpafov2JV7OS+rUtcucuTMjuFsF9zoIhLVsslA sw40RdUVF9W9r+l6pXGuPkoz2Bt/duC+DS1fyH4ELAgqb7gyqFd550eo2un81jIKGPlB Jb5g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=TlGvcj/4ZFdGfvTK2EiqdHP5S587cjR37OYjvGoFdbg=; b=M4Fw94YyqF1N/AnHd15mYCJgGOK3hgNBIohhoEYV0+ZcGYO8KROZY1yh3rpBiTKioI 804NFTc8K6ay6cMST5aWUKWZb3JV7ltKsEbJYXPAF989/aSzNfzHFgNBVac6xWUpEbp9 pOtalB+rHAfoQs5LaOk+MgKp6AME5rzjoYZsygi6HEsOd6QwBkZhpeo3jfvnJB3euUhg lbIqoOUE0an/9XtRUwNGhNWDMxTEnQq6iUW9peYXCgxI2OBuL7EUwRFysqAIxzjMZ2B4 JcVw0wSHdjoYkcBYhF4zY8xYjcWnvqkC3bPiuVtzHwKav/V6RkWFgkcj7YKmbvGIdQso fBzw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531xG7wyskXI1Vh9jk8qd6k6v2BYSdIeSnG2gOd6Eqw6b/JjwNof Q+x7jKQQGhEmxPXPqjELDK9SWYfl X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxtFTxBVwegA55+bufbQOzEyhL0VLzuaT3knhaeqWE/pHCfxq/E4UQEAwAt2XYPGdgdBBsMwQ== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:4086:: with SMTP id n128mr10369887wma.118.1595000959279; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 08:49:19 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.0.6] ([109.110.245.170]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id r10sm15230785wrm.17.2020.07.17.08.49.18 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 17 Jul 2020 08:49:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Content-Language: en-US Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::330; envelope-from=raaahh@gmail.com; helo=mail-wm1-x330.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (0.0 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:253034 Archived-At: On 17.07.2020 18:41, Drew Adams wrote: > "Don't look! - INTERNAL" is, in particular, > not a good reason. It's not a reason at all, > except perhaps in the context of protecting > private property, which we're not in the > business of doing, here. Opaqueness should > be anathema to free software. "You may look, but try not to touch" would perhaps be a better analogy. Lisp indeed is a special language, and any concerns that my choice would actually be _hiding_ something from the users is a dramatic overstatement. Both the code and the returned values are trivial to examine.