From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Summer Emacs Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs Newbie Info Pages Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2024 09:39:51 +0200 Message-ID: <07DFC42A-87BE-43BC-B646-2F7F711E2D84@summerstar.me> References: <87wmjg4tkq.fsf@posteo.net> <391666A2-D4BA-4DFE-9FF6-CAA48797EC97@summerstar.me> <87seu44r6o.fsf@posteo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3776.700.51\)) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_18C4E06A-7321-43FD-A480-7D7CF22A5FCF" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="20271"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Philip Kaludercic Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Sep 13 09:40:57 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1sp0vI-00052d-PT for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 13 Sep 2024 09:40:56 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sp0uo-0007N0-Fn; Fri, 13 Sep 2024 03:40:26 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sp0ul-0007Mg-Jr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Sep 2024 03:40:24 -0400 Original-Received: from st43p00im-ztdg10063201.me.com ([17.58.63.182]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sp0ui-0001fE-MD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Sep 2024 03:40:22 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=summerstar.me; s=sig1; t=1726213219; bh=AxU3jVK9LovKUM8Ww6egTqXX+AWZePiW9Dg+hottnF4=; h=From:Message-Id:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:To; b=CbUTosEvfIdFFWw5Almr0XARnDsPsL2VXuT6nmawIhZM6j6/ye0/GpGfCWvU5tpu8 XCgqsHKJM3ghMjr9hU+ZRtIKIf4J56b9UfmN0T6DKK26Uqw2LbhLmB4QKsR9790Ht1 sdOI/3GqRJXsBLDdpE5yzySJ/U9d4hcsHED/zQi0CuwCqc3+7XDczuJHcfQ7cfWb+I mVObc8SzOfmzHoadl4elpb0Q8b0g0Nzpsi7RZEXOkWtojurZGhjzC9lIPqt0gQosPc 999I3J8VUMdZYJ03JFE9z43bdaelOwdf/k51W6J9qgNj5ea9Bl3FW32n/QWgdACjXh rGMwyPlOf4ZKA== Original-Received: from smtpclient.apple (st43p00im-dlb-asmtp-mailmevip.me.com [17.42.251.41]) by st43p00im-ztdg10063201.me.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 441EE98048C; Fri, 13 Sep 2024 07:40:15 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: <87seu44r6o.fsf@posteo.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3776.700.51) X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: uLk6YTzU9ECVu7tXwgNV2JIiccKb4cW1 X-Proofpoint-GUID: uLk6YTzU9ECVu7tXwgNV2JIiccKb4cW1 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.272,Aquarius:18.0.1039,Hydra:6.0.680,FMLib:17.12.60.29 definitions=2024-09-13_04,2024-09-13_01,2024-09-02_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1030 mlxlogscore=999 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.19.0-2308100000 definitions=main-2409130053 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=17.58.63.182; envelope-from=summeremacs@summerstar.me; helo=st43p00im-ztdg10063201.me.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:323579 Archived-At: --Apple-Mail=_18C4E06A-7321-43FD-A480-7D7CF22A5FCF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Sep 12, 2024, at 21:17, Philip Kaludercic = wrote: >=20 > (Friendly reminder: Please don't forget to CC everyone when = responding, > otherwise some people might miss your response!) Thanks. I=E2=80=99ll do that. =3D) >> Good question: The =E2=80=9Cone page=E2=80=9D I=E2=80=99m envisioning = is like another default >> splash page with links to the various sections and an easy return >> point (such as M-x newbie). >=20 > My point is just that if it is not a manual, with a table of contents, > an index, etc. then there might not be much of a point in using Info. = A > M-x newbie command that populates a help buffer might be just as = useful, > and easier to maintain. Okay. I didn=E2=80=99t know there was a difference but sure. (See, not a = dev. Thank you for clearing that up =3D) ) >> I think some examples would be a good idea. You may not realize this >> but if I throw a (setq ) in the face of a newbie with little >> explanation, we might never see them again. My suggestion would be to >> include some bare-bones configs with lots of comments and what >> everything means, including the comments. >=20 > I guess we are thinking of different kinds of newbies here. That = being > said, an experiment I have been thinking about but haven't implemented > yet is a .ini-parser for Emacs that could load a Emacs configuration > from a file like=20 >=20 > --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- > [package avy] > set all-windows all-frames > bind C-z avy-goto-word-1 >=20 > [package auctex] > set TeX-master dwim > hook TeX-language-de-hook site/use-german > rebind RET newline=20 >=20 > [package bash-completion] > (bash-completion-setup) > --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- >=20 > where the common patterns are simplified and made safe (e.g. the "set" > directive wouldn't evaluate) but still remains powerful, as you can > intersperse lisp code. If I ever get around to finishing this -- or > anyone else decides to steal the idea ;) -- then adding this to the = core > and loading ~/.emacs.d/init.conf if it exists might be a useful thing = to > mention in a newbie manual. Well, since I keep hearing =E2=80=9CEmacs is for everyone=E2=80=9D and = =E2=80=9CFree software is for everyone=E2=80=9D, I=E2=80=99m imagining = some of my friends: people who use their phones and iPads, Tik Tok, = iMessage, WhatsApp, and who don=E2=80=99t ever look at a computer unless = they have to at work or in class. People like me who didn=E2=80=99t know = how to do much of anything other than open a file, write in it, click a = few buttons, and send it off in an Email. Those people. Regular people. = People who don=E2=80=99t know what a function or a variable is. People = who don=E2=80=99t know what a computer language is and think that your = use of Emacs makes you a genius. My people. =3D) You know, = =E2=80=9CEveryone=E2=80=9D that=E2=80=99s left outside of the = community. =3D) >> You have to get a newbie to understand what M-x eww is. =E2=80=9CJust = RTFM=E2=80=9D >> isn=E2=80=99t the same anymore. Veronica just did a video on how = =E2=80=9CThe Manual=E2=80=9D >> has changed over the years: >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D4lUiUQOvRHQ (this should be = required >> viewing for anyone writing help files today - they even used to >> explain what the space bar is used for.) My point is: Emacs, while >> powerful, while understandable by those with a modicum of time and >> maybe a slight bit of computer experience, is not newbie friendly. = I=E2=80=99m >> not aiming to hold the hands of developers who are used to looking up >> functions on the fly; I=E2=80=99m proposing we have a page with = sub-pages of >> easily understood material for non-developers and coders. I also am >> not proposing that we =E2=80=9Cchange=E2=80=9D Emacs in any way - I = love Emacs the way >> it is. It=E2=80=99s just want an instantly available newbie section. = It=E2=80=99s not >> a huge ask, right? =3D) >=20 > I am not disagreeing, I just want to qualify this with my own = impression > that a big problem nowadays is that people just don't want to read, no > matter what you write. An indication for this might be that when I > tried out VSCode a few months ago, and I tried to open up a manual to > study the program properly, all I could find was a series of videos = with > some light commentary. And I suspect most people don't even watch = them? This is true. I=E2=80=99m trying to reach them anyway. =3D) > --=20 > Philip Kaludercic on siskin Summer Emacs.= --Apple-Mail=_18C4E06A-7321-43FD-A480-7D7CF22A5FCF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On Sep 12, 2024, at 21:17, Philip Kaludercic = <philipk@posteo.net> wrote:

(Friendly reminder: = Please don't forget to CC everyone when responding,
otherwise some people might miss your response!)

Thanks. I=E2=80=99ll do = that. =3D)

Good question: The =E2=80=9Cone page=E2=80=9D I=E2=80=99m = envisioning is like another default
splash page with links to the = various sections and an easy return
point (such as M-x = newbie).

My = point is just that if it is not a manual, with a table of = contents,
an = index, etc. then there might not be much of a point in using Info. =  A
M-x = newbie command that populates a help buffer might be just as = useful,
and = easier to maintain.

Okay. I = didn=E2=80=99t know there was a difference but sure. (See, not a dev. = Thank you for clearing that up =3D) )

I think some = examples would be a good idea. You may not realize this
but if I = throw a (setq ) in the face of a newbie with little
explanation, we = might never see them again. My suggestion would be to
include some = bare-bones configs with lots of comments and what
everything means, = including the comments.

I guess = we are thinking of different kinds of newbies here.  That = being
said, = an experiment I have been thinking about but haven't = implemented
yet is = a .ini-parser for Emacs that could load a Emacs configuration
from a = file like 

--8<---------------cut = here---------------start------------->8---
[package avy]
set = all-windows all-frames
bind = C-z avy-goto-word-1

[package auctex]
set = TeX-master dwim
hook = TeX-language-de-hook site/use-german
rebind RET newline 

[package bash-completion]
(bash-completion-setup)
--8<---------------cut = here---------------end--------------->8---

where = the common patterns are simplified and made safe (e.g. the = "set"
directive wouldn't evaluate) but still remains powerful, as = you can
intersperse lisp code.  If I ever get around to = finishing this -- or
anyone = else decides to steal the idea ;) -- then adding this to the = core
and = loading ~/.emacs.d/init.conf if it exists might be a useful thing = to
mention = in a newbie manual.

Well, = since I keep hearing =E2=80=9CEmacs is for everyone=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9C= Free software is for everyone=E2=80=9D, I=E2=80=99m imagining some of my = friends: people who use their phones and iPads, Tik Tok, iMessage, = WhatsApp, and who don=E2=80=99t ever look at a computer unless they have = to at work or in class. People like me who didn=E2=80=99t know how to do = much of anything other than open a file, write in it, click a few = buttons, and send it off in an Email. Those people. Regular people. = People who don=E2=80=99t know what a function or a variable is. People = who don=E2=80=99t know what a computer language is and think that your = use of Emacs makes you a genius. My people. =3D) You know, = =E2=80=9CEveryone=E2=80=9D that=E2=80=99s left  outside of the = community. =3D)

You have to get = a newbie to understand what M-x eww is. =E2=80=9CJust RTFM=E2=80=9D
isn= =E2=80=99t the same anymore. Veronica just did a video on how =E2=80=9CThe= Manual=E2=80=9D
has changed over the = years:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D4lUiUQOvRHQ (this should be = required
viewing for anyone writing help files today - they even used = to
explain what the space bar is used for.) My point is: Emacs, = while
powerful, while understandable by those with a modicum of time = and
maybe a slight bit of computer experience, is not newbie = friendly. I=E2=80=99m
not aiming to hold the hands of developers who = are used to looking up
functions on the fly; I=E2=80=99m proposing we = have a page with sub-pages of
easily understood material for = non-developers and coders. I also am
not proposing that we = =E2=80=9Cchange=E2=80=9D Emacs in any way - I love Emacs the way
it = is. It=E2=80=99s just want an instantly available newbie section. It=E2=80= =99s not
a huge ask, right? =3D)

I am = not disagreeing, I just want to qualify this with my own = impression
that a = big problem nowadays is that people just don't want to read, = no
matter = what you write.  An indication for this might be that when = I
tried = out VSCode a few months ago, and I tried to open up a manual = to
study = the program properly, all I could find was a series of videos = with
some = light commentary.  And I suspect most people don't even watch = them?

This is = true. I=E2=80=99m trying to reach them anyway. = =3D)

-- 
Philip Kaludercic on = siskin

Summer = Emacs.
= --Apple-Mail=_18C4E06A-7321-43FD-A480-7D7CF22A5FCF--