From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#12911: 24.3.50; let users decide where (& perhaps whether) `emacs_backtrace.txt' files are written Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 10:42:03 -0800 Message-ID: <0798DA6CB6824DBDBB368EEF1821B2C0@us.oracle.com> References: <4B9EFDFEE27E43DBB6331605DD7C2842@us.oracle.com> <50A7DB2C.7050501@cs.ucla.edu> <8339082gig.fsf@gnu.org> <753BC08DCC9A446BB22336EDB8AF31CF@us.oracle.com> <83fw471s0y.fsf@gnu.org> <83r4nqztk0.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1353264192 6049 80.91.229.3 (18 Nov 2012 18:43:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 18:43:12 +0000 (UTC) Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 12911@debbugs.gnu.org To: "'Eli Zaretskii'" Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Nov 18 19:43:23 2012 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ta9px-0006JA-9W for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 18 Nov 2012 19:43:21 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:35929 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ta9pn-0004yq-7p for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 18 Nov 2012 13:43:11 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:56571) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ta9pi-0004xr-Ba for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 18 Nov 2012 13:43:09 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ta9pf-0002sK-9n for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 18 Nov 2012 13:43:06 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:42997) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ta9pf-0002sG-65 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 18 Nov 2012 13:43:03 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Ta9qb-0003Ou-Tt for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 18 Nov 2012 13:44:01 -0500 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 18:44:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 12911 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 12911-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B12911.135326420013018 (code B ref 12911); Sun, 18 Nov 2012 18:44:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 12911) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Nov 2012 18:43:20 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53248 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Ta9pv-0003Ns-Qo for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Nov 2012 13:43:20 -0500 Original-Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:50904) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Ta9ps-0003Nk-SH for 12911@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Nov 2012 13:43:18 -0500 Original-Received: from acsinet22.oracle.com (acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id qAIIgEf0032355 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 18 Nov 2012 18:42:15 GMT Original-Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by acsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id qAIIgEpX007633 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 18 Nov 2012 18:42:14 GMT Original-Received: from abhmt104.oracle.com (abhmt104.oracle.com [141.146.116.56]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id qAIIgElX010258; Sun, 18 Nov 2012 12:42:14 -0600 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/71.202.147.44) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sun, 18 Nov 2012 10:42:14 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <83r4nqztk0.fsf@gnu.org> Thread-Index: Ac3FtbM1v1B3fGS4RoCNiWFCS3go2gABBISA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:67132 Archived-At: > > I don't care what Emacs does on Unix or on Windows. > > Well, I do. Which is why I'm working on developing and maintaining > Emacs. Read my statement in context. Taking it out of context reverses the intended meaning. > And if you think that declaring your indifference to the > cross-platform compatibility of Emacs I did no such thing. I am not at all indifferent to cross-platform compatibility. As you know full well. > raises the value of your arguments in my eyes, then I > suggest that you reconsider. > > > my concern is at the user level. Please don't mess with > > user data. That's not nice. And this includes user folders > > containing user files. > > Any folder on Windows can contain user data, because most Windows > users are usually local administrators and have almost unlimited > privileges (except perhaps on corporate servers). Don't make the perfect the enemy of the good. You are stretching things. Yes, what you say is true. No, it is not particularly relevant. Yes, my entire C:/ drive is my drive and my data. So what? Irrelevant to the discussion. Please stick to the particulars. > In fact, Windows > doesn't even have a firm notion of a home directory. There are > guidelines where _applications_ should put their files, but nothing > about what is "home" for the user, where the user should keep her > precious lasagna recipes. We (Emacs) pick up one or 2 plausible > locations and pretend they are that "home", but they aren't, as far as > the OS and the rest of applications are concerned. They are just more > or less random directories. I have no argument with any of what you said there. > > The first rule should be not to do any harm. > > You are making a mount out of a molehill. There is no harm. > Well-behaving applications write to all kinds of directories all the > time, including user home directories. Bash writes ~/.bash_history, > Bazaar writes ~/.bzr.log, Eshell writes ~/.eshell/*. Etc. etc. -- > this is the norm, not the exception. Emacs behaves according to > well-established norms. > > I agree that putting that file in ~/.emacs.d/ (also in the home a > directory, so maybe you will still protest) is slightly better. Why would I protest? I'm the one who _suggested_ putting it there. And I have not once mentioned "home" directory in this discussion. Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else. Anyway, I'm very glad you agree about ~/.emacs.d/. So at the very least this bug should remain open on the wishlist until fixed. To me, this bother is a regression, as I said earlier. But whether you look at it like that or not, at least you agree that it is better to put the file in ~/.emacs.d/. That's progress. > But if Emacs should do that, it should do it on all the > supported platforms. I'm sorry, but unless this is what's > agreed soon, I _will_ close this bug. I have no problem with the bug being fixed on all platforms. In fact, I have explicitly said (several times now) that if this is also a problem on other platforms then it _should_ be fixed there as well. And in the very mail which you quoted out of context above, reversing the sense of what I wrote! This is what I said: If Emacs on Unix is just as user-inconsiderate in this regard as it is on Windows, then it too needs to be sent back for regrooving. And: On any platform. It does not belong there. I just happen to be using Emacs on Windows, and I reported this problem there. If it is not Windows-specific, fine - please fix it wherever it occurs. Pretty damn clear, no? And this: If there is a problem on platform XYZ, please fix it on XYZ. For all XYZ, preferably. For Windows, at least. Is this problem a mountain or a mole hill? Closer to the latter, clearly. But Emacs users never had this bother before. Why should they have it now? Just because on MS Windows everything belongs to the user is no excuse to start polluting arbitrary folders. Such an argument is way off-base. A family who does not (or even cannot) lock their front door is not _asking_ you to come in and trash their house.