From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: chad Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: VC mode and git Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2015 16:29:13 -0700 Message-ID: <07163916-3057-41E4-9CAF-85909CAF448F@gmail.com> References: <551A3F17.6020903@math.ntnu.no> <20150331085055.GA2871@acm.fritz.box> <87zj6tiko1.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <20150331104935.GB2871@acm.fritz.box> <87y4mdi7tj.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <20150331214347.GH2871@acm.fritz.box> <87iodgiqr8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <20150401123241.GB2633@acm.fritz.box> <87d23nime8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <20150401220527.GD2633@acm.fritz.box> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2070.6\)) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_42619F18-492E-43D0-9CF3-E9950DE7BA73" X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1427930980 22783 80.91.229.3 (1 Apr 2015 23:29:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2015 23:29:40 +0000 (UTC) To: Alan Mackenzie , emacs-devel Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Apr 02 01:29:34 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1YdS4j-0007A1-I4 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 02 Apr 2015 01:29:33 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55380 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YdS4i-0006YI-T8 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 01 Apr 2015 19:29:32 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:40657) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YdS4V-0006Y6-Df for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 01 Apr 2015 19:29:20 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YdS4S-0003D3-6G for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 01 Apr 2015 19:29:19 -0400 Original-Received: from p3plsmtpa07-08.prod.phx3.secureserver.net ([173.201.192.237]:51958) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YdS4R-0003Cz-Uu for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 01 Apr 2015 19:29:16 -0400 Original-Received: from [10.0.1.20] ([75.165.96.95]) by p3plsmtpa07-08.prod.phx3.secureserver.net with id AnVD1q00923UBUB01nVDj4; Wed, 01 Apr 2015 16:29:14 -0700 X-Sender: chad@lonesharkgames.com In-Reply-To: <20150401220527.GD2633@acm.fritz.box> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2070.6) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 173.201.192.237 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:184765 Archived-At: --Apple-Mail=_42619F18-492E-43D0-9CF3-E9950DE7BA73 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 01 Apr 2015, at 15:05, Alan Mackenzie wrote: >=20 >>> It seems the real answer is "everybody" commits often, so it must >>> be good thing to do. I've never found that sort of reasoning >>> persuasive. Frequent commits allow people the freedom to move up, down, and around the various versions of a dynamic codebase thats also being worked on by many other people. The various tools for navigating the DAG help quite a lot, but such things are generally too obscure for new git users to grok, so they sit waiting for a future when Im ready that sometimes never arrives. The practice also meshes nicely with (both responding to and encouraging) a style of programming that emphasizes and rewards frequent experiments and (especially popular lately) test-driven exploration in actual code. If you arent already used to working this way, then there is a hill to climb before it becomes comfortable. This naturally implies a tradeoff - some people will hate climbing the hill more, while others will be excited to try something new with the hope of improving their workflow, programming ability, etc. (As an aside: This last group is, I claim, very important to Emacs, because its a major source of new Emacs users - they grow up on simple editors and IDEs, and then hear that theres rich rewards to be gained if only they can manage to climb the cliffs of Emacs mastery.) I dont want to put words into anyones mouth, but I think that there are people on this list who are trying to help others *understand* git that want to convey something like this idea: There are solid advantages to this part of git=E2=80=99s typical usage pattern that are considered features not bugs, and will not be changed (by git) because of these advantages. Whether those features are advantageous to any one person is a tradeoff. The discussion continues (IMHO) because *some* of the people who have made a *personal* choice are making claims about *general* choices, and those claims directly contradict the choices of many reasonable, knowledgable people. It certainly doesnt help that so many of these claims are *statements* that take the form =E2=80=9C= I=20 don=E2=80=99t see why anyone would ever want FOO.=E2=80=9D I hope that helps, ~Chad= --Apple-Mail=_42619F18-492E-43D0-9CF3-E9950DE7BA73 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On 01 Apr 2015, at 15:05, Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> = wrote:

It seems the real answer is "everybody" commits often, so it = must
be good thing to do.  I've never found that sort = of reasoning
persuasive.
Frequent commits allow people the freedom = to move up, down, and
around the various versions of a dynamic = codebase thats also being
worked on by many other people. The = various tools for navigating
the DAG help quite a lot, but = such things are generally too obscure
for new git users to = grok, so they sit waiting for a future when
Im ready that = sometimes never arrives. The practice also meshes
nicely with = (both responding to and encouraging) a style of = programming
that emphasizes and rewards frequent experiments = and (especially
popular lately) test-driven exploration in = actual code.

If you arent = already used to working this way, then there is a hill
to = climb before it becomes comfortable. This naturally implies = a
tradeoff - some people will hate climbing the hill more, = while
others will be excited to try something new with the = hope of improving
their workflow, programming ability, etc. = (As an aside: This last
group is, I claim, very important to = Emacs, because its a major
source of new Emacs users - they = grow up on simple editors and IDEs,
and then hear that theres = rich rewards to be gained if only they
can manage to climb the = cliffs of Emacs mastery.)

I = dont want to put words into anyones mouth, but I think that = there
are people on this list who are trying to help others = *understand*
git that want to convey something like this = idea:

There are solid advantages to = this part of git=E2=80=99s typical
usage = pattern that are considered features not bugs, and
will not = be changed (by git) because of these advantages.

Whether those features are advantageous to any one = person is a
tradeoff. The discussion continues (IMHO) because = *some* of the
people who have made a *personal* choice are = making claims about
*general* choices, and those claims = directly contradict the choices
of many reasonable, = knowledgable people.  It certainly doesnt help
that so = many of these claims are *statements* that take the form = =E2=80=9CI 
don=E2=80=99t see why anyone would ever want = FOO.=E2=80=9D

I hope that = helps,
~Chad
= --Apple-Mail=_42619F18-492E-43D0-9CF3-E9950DE7BA73--