From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Daniel Colascione Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal: new default bindings for winner and windmove Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2024 08:57:36 -0400 Message-ID: <055E6E92-6971-409E-A106-7E0C64FEF856@dancol.org> References: <7133BE83-064B-43A4-A193-61376605222C@dancol.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="22553"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android Cc: Stefan Kangas , Stefan Monnier , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Jun 23 14:58:37 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1sLMnk-0005f9-JG for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 23 Jun 2024 14:58:37 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sLMmz-0001hc-Qg; Sun, 23 Jun 2024 08:57:49 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sLMmx-0001h8-Sk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 23 Jun 2024 08:57:47 -0400 Original-Received: from dancol.org ([2600:3c01:e000:3d8::1]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sLMmv-0006a7-Vo for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 23 Jun 2024 08:57:47 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=dancol.org; s=x; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID: References:In-Reply-To:Subject:CC:To:From:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=U1VeEaimrmzlSLGSsn0ULh3UaXS7W1oGVQYhBCUOK1Q=; b=Bs+sYWwZ04PfLHITM6s0Q5P04H tQ6uRluBrq4VOzTWukRIbXBtPKLlWorpNWQW0QUxiqcyrJVGCq8NgfWGOuqcYSharPQnv5M2aGL4r 11I3sberDJH9pznHteEvv8eyfuSQK6AEOiMtNniZmrRdq+56MkPX2gWeiwNPTT47XkotJ59VzfWsB renq9Hf+Js3atSMPI2f+HWT3OyON1oumXPhUYwMeZ7ZorL936UdANBU19eHG/SGRz8vaZgXOprcwX fttd0LFUJYWlC1eCT75o00Ht2q37R9xXNKtDytf/ofQnAONlv0JvfHSSSTdNbCrvvC/1Dzy/w5F9f 953IaR3A==; Original-Received: from 2603-9001-4203-1ab2-9ec1-9764-cbee-ea26.inf6.spectrum.com ([2603:9001:4203:1ab2:9ec1:9764:cbee:ea26]:51418 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by dancol.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1sLMmn-0004fE-GS; Sun, 23 Jun 2024 08:57:37 -0400 In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2600:3c01:e000:3d8::1; envelope-from=dancol@dancol.org; helo=dancol.org X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:320517 Archived-At: On June 23, 2024 8:05:22 AM EDT, Alan Mackenzie wrote: >Hello, Daniel=2E > >On Sun, Jun 23, 2024 at 07:14:25 -0400, Daniel Colascione wrote: > > >> On June 23, 2024 6:05:13 AM EDT, Alan Mackenzie wrote: >> >Hello, Stefan and Stefan=2E > >> >On Fri, Jun 21, 2024 at 15:39:09 -0500, Stefan Kangas wrote: >> >> Stefan Monnier writes: > >> >> > A few years ago, Daniel suggested: >> >> >> Likewise, for windmove, we can bind C-x 4 {left, right, up, down}= and DWIM >> >> >> for people automatically, enabled by default=2E > >> >> > AFAICT we still don't actually provide any keybindings for the win= dmove >> >> > commands by default=2E Did I miss a controversy about that, or di= d it >> >> > just fall through the cracks? > >> >> FWIW, I don't remember any controversy either, so my guess is that i= t >> >> just fell through the cracks=2E > >> >I would be against using C-x 4 or C-x 5 for >> >windmove (or anything else) by default=2E Key sequences with arrow ke= ys >> >are too few, and too precious, to use for anything not critically >> >important=2E > >> >windmove is not critically important=2E Either it isn't used at all b= y a >> >user (likely most users), or it is used all the time (by a small numbe= r >> >of users)=2E In the latter case, the user will already have bound the >> >commands to key sequences, since they are not useful called from M-x= =2E > >> >It wasn't so long ago that we were removing default key bindings so as >> >to free them up for other uses=2E I don't think there's any reason to >> >reverse that policy for windmove=2E It just isn't important enough=2E > >> >There will be users who've bound these key bindings for their own uses= =2E >> >Let's not mess these users around=2E > >> The arrow keys don't have any meaning after C-x 4 today, and the >> meaning I've been wanting to give them is useful and logical=2E > >It's useful to you, personally=2E It wouldn't be useful to me=2E > >> I've been using the arrow key setup for years locally and it works very >> well=2E It really does make window management much less annoying, and >> it's not like we're going to use the arrow keys for anything else under >> C-x 4=2E > >You've been using C-x 4 for your purposes, and other users >will be using them for their purposes, likely to be different from yours= =2E So? Nobody is preventing those users doing what they want with their key b= indings=2E You're making a general purpose argument against having default= key bindings at all=2E Why don't we just ship Emacs with an empty global k= eymap so we're not imposing on anyone? > >> As for windmove being used by users --- well, wouldn't it be nice if we >> had metrics like other modern software projects? > >Xah Lee developed just such a program, inviting users to submit their >results to him for aggregation=2E This was around 10 years ago=2E What = came >out was largely that different users use Emacs very differently - an >everyday command for one user was totally unused by another=2E Metrics with nontrivial opt-in suffer from selection bias=2E The sort of p= erson who goes out of his way to enable telemetry is the sort of person who= 's going to do more customization than the average user=2E > >> But that aside, even if windmove is sparsely used today, might that be >> because it's inconvenient to use without bindings? > >It might, but it's unlikely=2E Even C-x 4 would be inconvenient for >me=2E I have other-window bound to and rarely have more than three >or four windows in a frame=2E I'd hit two or three times rather >going through the rigmarole of C-x 4 =2E So? How does providing default windmove bindings make your life worse? >As I said, C-x 4 are convenient to you for windmove >commands=2E They'll be convenient to other users for other commands in >just the same way=2E You're proposing imposing your setup on everybody= =2E >I'm against this=2E They're not convenient for anyone if left unbound=2E=20