From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Reitter Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: please make line-move-visual nil Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 22:32:05 -0400 Message-ID: <04DBCF84-74AA-4349-A891-9961E3F2779E@gmail.com> References: <23521879.post@talk.nabble.com><7b501d5c0905131659r1d79ec56s5a59f76e4713edf9@mail.gmail.com><23532135.post@talk.nabble.com> <87tz3odq3l.fsf@iki.fi><23538683.post@talk.nabble.com> <87eiuru24b.fsf@iki.fi><39370.130.55.118.19.1242397867.squirrel@webmail.lanl.gov> <48914.130.55.118.19.1242592120.squirrel@webmail.lanl.gov> <66C6BA04EBCF4B6DAED69E851627D852@us.oracle.com> <2A3A0621C3974D8A8BD4F58FFD63C61D@us.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=Apple-Mail-16-771036890; micalg=sha1; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1243218750 18453 80.91.229.12 (25 May 2009 02:32:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 02:32:30 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon May 25 04:32:23 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1M8PzC-0000Yk-4C for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 25 May 2009 04:32:22 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52624 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1M8PzB-00023Q-Ia for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 24 May 2009 22:32:21 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1M8Pz7-00023L-IU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 24 May 2009 22:32:17 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1M8Pz3-00022z-39 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 24 May 2009 22:32:17 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=54386 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1M8Pz2-00022w-U0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 24 May 2009 22:32:12 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-ew0-f162.google.com ([209.85.219.162]:36932) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1M8Pz2-00057D-B0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 24 May 2009 22:32:12 -0400 Original-Received: by ewy6 with SMTP id 6so3041869ewy.42 for ; Sun, 24 May 2009 19:32:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:cc:message-id:from:to :in-reply-to:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:references :x-mailer; bh=/toD6ac+AKCun1wX9psSaqHK+HMYyIm/oHts+vscJDY=; b=ODNySmjzYtaT02vR/eAGsn0kYa+IsYyJ4+8bqP48/TEx9Q7F/I3V6o0ZBLYQQ9OgDO boIbMaIn4wE8+zIxLqI2TmgnyH/O/nlLwiGwBYIB2bKnrD5oVzHbDVkCnddyNw8xRmAi G2ucjzviwS6xSbsvTfVVVAHVoQASB3qcezRjc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=cc:message-id:from:to:in-reply-to:content-type:mime-version:subject :date:references:x-mailer; b=sMXt0Hw1nOxOu6MqoR+eMdrqWOsQR+XGPhSGVtJDLqQlO4q+uqtTVyfpNNeGxxGob5 XduHaagdp/FQPB3UCLVqKXoMWl6fpm5AQstJoCf1jBh7zJgcFd4fAUkG1np547wjHe5v PtwaRRJQKmWKw2h/QBnwttwH5d9qWGalhW7eU= Original-Received: by 10.210.130.13 with SMTP id c13mr3392207ebd.76.1243218730629; Sun, 24 May 2009 19:32:10 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from ?192.168.1.42? (pool-71-162-19-47.pitbpa.east.verizon.net [71.162.19.47]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 7sm883855eyb.25.2009.05.24.19.32.08 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sun, 24 May 2009 19:32:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <2A3A0621C3974D8A8BD4F58FFD63C61D@us.oracle.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:111061 Archived-At: --Apple-Mail-16-771036890 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On May 24, 2009, at 8:52 PM, Drew Adams wrote: > Most buffers in Emacs are code buffers or formatted text, with non- > proportional > fonts and hard-returns (newlines) as line separators. For _at least_ > those > contexts, we should keep the normal behavior. The traditional line > movement fits > well with lines as they are defined in those contexts. Lines defined > by newlines > fit well with newline-oriented movement. Much of my stuff is actually done in variable-width fonts (LaTeX editing, for instance). Using fixed-width fonts even for code is not a must - if it wasn't for weak indentation (tabs, etc.) and perhaps the clickability of narrow glyphs such as curly brackets, I would actually prefer a variable-width font for code as well. >> I can see where you're coming from, though. > > Even though you didn't notice the reasons I gave? ;-) Good. Maybe > you sense the > reasons yourself? I know fairly well by now how a lot of the developers (and certainly a share of the users) work. And as RMS pointed out in a related thread some time ago, much of the GNU tool set is based on line-by-line processing. >> Note that I have bound C-n/p to non-visual movement in Aquamacs, >> while arrow keys are visual. > > Why would you even want non-visual movement? ;-) What's the use case/ > reason? Let > me guess... code? formatted buffers? most Emacs buffers? Yes, code and formatted buffers. But even there I wouldn't want it all the time - just in some situations. Correspondence of the commands with what is most directly inferable from the observable state (i.e. visual interface!) is essential - more so than corresponding with some underlying format, i.e. the file format. > When I write a paragraph in this mail client (Outlook), there is no > auto-fill or > anything that chops the text by inserting newlines. Visual line > movement might > be appropriate here (and that's in fact the line movement I have). I believe that Auto-fill is a thing of the past. The new word-wrap is the way to go for non-code. Here's why: > When you read this plain-text mail, it will have had newlines > inserted (for > better or, more likely, for worse), For worse, because the text only occupies 50% of the window I use to display your message. --Apple-Mail-16-771036890 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIFxDCCAn0w ggHmoAMCAQICED6shx13jEDrq0eL8FRq5ykwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkEx JTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQ ZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBMB4XDTA4MTIwOTAyMDgwMVoXDTA5MTIwOTAyMDgw MVowYjEQMA4GA1UEBBMHUmVpdHRlcjEOMAwGA1UEKhMFRGF2aWQxFjAUBgNVBAMTDURhdmlkIFJl aXR0ZXIxJjAkBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWF2RhdmlkLnJlaXR0ZXJAZ21haWwuY29tMIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3 DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQDOdo6kAwlkBxUb8dj4saMbYg4SVng8CUePFn3cjjWrakBTbUVa4Z0n wlUxr7AitEeKhBy5nGhu96+jKUPrCwYNRCZ0l2ovvuGq4z1m1nZ5/c8WvFlVhieuxXMUfmb/O7D3 IojoX6iS8n5MNNU2IWNNT/AD3vOl6DKgOtOw4J9y+QIDAQABozQwMjAiBgNVHREEGzAZgRdkYXZp ZC5yZWl0dGVyQGdtYWlsLmNvbTAMBgNVHRMBAf8EAjAAMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAA4GBAIjI8yEW wkiEfA9PMgpjnD6KyCXT0iZjHhW2PkR53yZZLUoTboHnKgsFwYp/gzzIL8J5cvZaRUyMUzXDufPP dRmxxCs2jXXLDD/8bvdvOuMzqgYoFA73fAfsC8S6qUL1PayZ90J8CZHNhDwqWqOA56T+DdKUegJT sqoHKh6OnypTMIIDPzCCAqigAwIBAgIBDTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCB0TELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkEx FTATBgNVBAgTDFdlc3Rlcm4gQ2FwZTESMBAGA1UEBxMJQ2FwZSBUb3duMRowGAYDVQQKExFUaGF3 dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZzEoMCYGA1UECxMfQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlvbiBTZXJ2aWNlcyBEaXZpc2lvbjEk MCIGA1UEAxMbVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIENBMSswKQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhxwZXJz b25hbC1mcmVlbWFpbEB0aGF3dGUuY29tMB4XDTAzMDcxNzAwMDAwMFoXDTEzMDcxNjIzNTk1OVow YjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAq BgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBMIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEB AQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQDEpjxVc1X7TrnKmVoeaMB1BHCd3+n/ox7svc31W/Iadr1/DDph8r9RzgHU 5VAKMNcCY1osiRVwjt3J8CuFWqo/cVbLrzwLB+fxH5E2JCoTzyvV84J3PQO+K/67GD4Hv0CAAmTX p6a7n2XRxSpUhQ9IBH+nttE8YQRAHmQZcmC3+wIDAQABo4GUMIGRMBIGA1UdEwEB/wQIMAYBAf8C AQAwQwYDVR0fBDwwOjA4oDagNIYyaHR0cDovL2NybC50aGF3dGUuY29tL1RoYXd0ZVBlcnNvbmFs RnJlZW1haWxDQS5jcmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMCkGA1UdEQQiMCCkHjAcMRowGAYDVQQDExFQcml2 YXRlTGFiZWwyLTEzODANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFAAOBgQBIjNFQg+oLLswNo2asZw9/r6y+whehQ5aU nX9MIbj4Nh+qLZ82L8D0HFAgk3A8/a3hYWLD2ToZfoSxmRsAxRoLgnSeJVCUYsfbJ3FXJY3dqZw5 jowgT2Vfldr394fWxghOrvbqNOUQGls1TXfjViF4gtwhGTXeJLHTHUb/XV9lTzGCAo8wggKLAgEB MHYwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4x LDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAhA+rIcdd4xA66tH i/BUaucpMAkGBSsOAwIaBQCgggFvMBgGCSqGSIb3DQEJAzELBgkqhkiG9w0BBwEwHAYJKoZIhvcN AQkFMQ8XDTA5MDUyNTAyMzIwNVowIwYJKoZIhvcNAQkEMRYEFJzu8kFEFio8z3JKT1r+7hxIV2C7 MIGFBgkrBgEEAYI3EAQxeDB2MGIxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMSUwIwYDVQQKExxUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3Vs dGluZyAoUHR5KSBMdGQuMSwwKgYDVQQDEyNUaGF3dGUgUGVyc29uYWwgRnJlZW1haWwgSXNzdWlu ZyBDQQIQPqyHHXeMQOurR4vwVGrnKTCBhwYLKoZIhvcNAQkQAgsxeKB2MGIxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpB MSUwIwYDVQQKExxUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZyAoUHR5KSBMdGQuMSwwKgYDVQQDEyNUaGF3dGUg UGVyc29uYWwgRnJlZW1haWwgSXNzdWluZyBDQQIQPqyHHXeMQOurR4vwVGrnKTANBgkqhkiG9w0B AQEFAASBgHryw2AusSNJVK7PD+OPsUE880lngNrJzl3Wfd9kcn+r+ZBssGjIquNDkB2mh/AjHFX8 ZBNVV875FpuLCb2vLbyDwIqxDGYeT+VZpSyGJOpiM4xQ9Rh8sqlgjEiK8fo61eNJZLQEqRlBn/Zu njvMtZY8PzGDsDBi0CYEVzurmdFtAAAAAAAA --Apple-Mail-16-771036890--