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envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=userp2120.oracle.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/05/17 02:49:32 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.1-3.10 [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:250569 Archived-At: > > I don't have any experience using 'transient', so > > I'd need more explanation from you to understand > > what you meant by that part. (I tried to understand > > 'transient' from reading [2] and [3], but unfortunately > > -- and somewhat surprisingly! -- the documentation at > > those pages does not give a single concrete example > > of transient's use.) >=20 > You press 'C-x', wait a while - and it pops up a > window with the descriptions of all commands whose > bindings start with 'C-x'. Same for all other > "incomplete" key sequences. Looks pretty handy for > beginners. https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/Icicles_-_Key_Completion#AutomaticKeyComple= tion FWIW. Key completion since 2007. > > one of the things we should prioritize is teaching > > newcomers how important those help facilities are > > and how to use them in a smart way. I'm specifically > > saying that this is *more important for Emacs than > > it is for other editors*. ... it's a difference in=20 > > prioritization: for Emacs users, using that > > built-in help is more important than it would be in > > other editors, and the methods and circumstances of > > using the help are different too. So we should > > incorporate that fact into how we present Emacs to > > new users. > > > > I believe we'll make better decisions if we keep in > > mind that "friendly to newcomers" is not, in itself, > > the primary goal. >=20 > It's not like extreme user-friendliness was ever a > guiding principle here. :-) I disagree. There is a difference between "extreme user-friendliness" - which I think is, and should be, a guiding principle here, and prioritizing "friendly to newcomers". Just because something (a great book, a great work of art or science or craft) doesn't immediately reflect the preconceptions and baked-in expectations of a newbie to it, that doesn't mean it's not rewarding and "friendly" to its "users". Not at all.