From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: RE: Is Elisp really that slow? 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Fri, 17 May 2019 15:03:03 +0000 Original-Received: from abhmp0011.oracle.com (abhmp0011.oracle.com [141.146.116.17]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id x4HF32JM019547; Fri, 17 May 2019 15:03:02 GMT In-Reply-To: <20190517125657.og5cpc5ty7mjdyhw@Ergus> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4849.0 (x86)] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=9259 signatures=668687 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=18 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=935 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1810050000 definitions=main-1905170092 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=9259 signatures=668687 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=18 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=966 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1810050000 definitions=main-1905170092 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 156.151.31.86 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:120492 Archived-At: > We have this discussions so often because we only get the developer's and > old users opinion. But not a general public survey to measure global > opinions. The opinions of Emacs developers and experienced Emacs user are the most helpful opinions, including in terms of guiding where Emacs can and should go. The opinions of non-users and non-developers of Emacs are useful mainly in terms of discovering their misconceptions and their current, often limited or unfortunate experience with applications only somewhat similar to Emacs (editors and other). We have this discussion, especially about key bindings, so often because there are _lots_ of non-users of Emacs who discover Emacs, realize it's something powerful and potentially even more powerful, but who have ingrained key-binding etc. habits that they imagine are superior. Eli nailed it when he gave his list of the kinds of things Emacs really needs to improve its usefulness, especially for programmers (e.g. IDE features). It's NOT at all about key bindings and such. Perhaps most (nearly all?) newbies to Emacs initially feel that the key bindings and interactions they were used to before Emacs are superior or easier. That's been the case since Day One. In general (and no, not always), they've been wrong about that. When they've been right they've just customized their Emacs to do what they prefer. And in some cases Emacs has itself ended up changing default behavior along the lines of what they've implemented as, initially, personal customizations. Yes, we took decades to turn on `transient-mark-mode' by default. And yes, we still haven't turned on `delete-selection-mode' by default (something I'm in favor of, FWIW). So what? It's so easy to turn something on or redefine something in your init file. The argument that Emacs should change to reflect, out of the box, what most non-Emacs users are used to is super-flawed, and hollow.