From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: please review bug #13141 Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 22:40:32 -0800 Message-ID: <02E2F382109247D2BA24FED9177E0610@us.oracle.com> References: <50FCEBE3.6070806@acdlabs.ru><20130121.162653.2105027028246728109.hanche@math.ntnu.no><33138BB23B3E4FF383A1AA44C6D2EF08@us.oracle.com> <20130122121522.9d0dbded7956c84c2e66ce0f@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1358836857 952 80.91.229.3 (22 Jan 2013 06:40:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 06:40:57 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 'Harald Hanche-Olsen' , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "'Xue Fuqiao'" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jan 22 07:41:16 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1TxXXm-0006f5-Oy for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 07:41:14 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:50569 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TxXXV-0005r0-Or for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 01:40:57 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:42352) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TxXXS-0005qi-3Q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 01:40:55 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TxXXO-0003Ir-L1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 01:40:54 -0500 Original-Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:44206) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TxXXO-0003Ig-AP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 01:40:50 -0500 Original-Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id r0M6el1J003481 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 22 Jan 2013 06:40:48 GMT Original-Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r0M6ekdZ022868 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 22 Jan 2013 06:40:47 GMT Original-Received: from abhmt120.oracle.com (abhmt120.oracle.com [141.146.116.72]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id r0M6ek1T025076; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 00:40:46 -0600 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.240.243) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Mon, 21 Jan 2013 22:40:45 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <20130122121522.9d0dbded7956c84c2e66ce0f@gmail.com> Thread-Index: Ac34Vx5ui+mF5qtrTYuae4W1jfHsZQAEIBGg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-Received-From: 141.146.126.69 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:156573 Archived-At: > > Configuration is _not needed_ to send a bug report, if you > > have an external mail client, which is true of most people > > nowadays. That should be the default, the starting point > > in our instructions to users. Start with the simple > > method, and make clear that the complex method is optional. > > IIRC the default value of `send-mail-function' is > `sendmail-query-once', which queries for `send-mail-function' > and sends mail with the queried result (and also saves the > value of `send-mail-function' via Customize). And in the > *Bug Help* buffer: > Type C-c m to copy text to your preferred mail program. And all of that complexity, which admittedly can lead to convenience, is extra, unnecessary. It can be nice, but it is not necessary in order for a user to report a bug. That's the point, and it is a point that is not passed along clearly to users, IMO. Users do not _need_ to bother with `send-mail-function', `sendmail-query-once', automatic saving of customized values, or any of the rest. They can just send an email to bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, ignoring all of the Emacs paraphernalia provided to assist you in doing that. > > The first (and hence potentially the only) question the > > dialog should ask is simply whether you want to use Emacs > > itself to send the mail. But even for that there is no > > necessary reason to ask the user. > > I don't think so, it can be like this: > Type C-c C-c to send the bug report (using send-mail-function). Sorry, I don't get your point. My point was that we need not query the user _at all_, not even once. Why? Because s?he can just send a mail outside Emacs - QED. The questioning and related hoopla is only for the case where the user wants to either (a) have Emacs pull up his external mail client for him or (b) have Emacs actually mail the message. We have made that more complicated case into the default, regular case. And we neglect to simply mention the simpler case at all: just send an email to bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org. (We mention that possibility in the manual, but not in the `report-emacs-bug' instructions.) If a user does not want to simply send a message using an external mail client, perhaps after composing the message in Emacs and copying it, then s?he can hit C-c C-c to get the behavior you describe (the querying, config dialog if appropriate, etc.). Otherwise, no questions needed. But today the instructions displayed when you invoke `report-emacs-bug' do not even make it clear that you have the (simpler) option of just sending a message to bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org. We immediately lead the user down the garden path of our helpful inquisition. That's not necessary. It's great to provide the conveniences we do, to help users get their reports to Emacs Dev. But it's not _necessary_ for users to do things that way. The convenience we provide is a nice-to-have, and it should be kept, of course. But it should not be the first thing we tell users about, wrt reporting a bug. The first thing to tell them is that all they need to do is send an email to bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org. KISS. See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor.