From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Eli Zaretskii" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 17:45:49 +0200 Message-ID: <01c52c9a$Blat.v2.4$de6b8020@zahav.net.il> References: <874qf8d3cy.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <1111219043.820733.143980@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1111248312 10588 80.91.229.2 (19 Mar 2005 16:05:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 16:05:12 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Mar 19 17:05:11 2005 Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DCgRV-0003VO-Uf for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 17:04:50 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DCgiE-000795-I7 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 11:22:06 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DCgdv-0004Pn-CO for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 11:17:40 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DCgdo-0004M5-5m for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 11:17:32 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DCgdn-0004G2-N2 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 11:17:31 -0500 Original-Received: from [192.114.186.66] (helo=romy.inter.net.il) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DCgBp-0000EC-3S for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 10:48:37 -0500 Original-Received: from zaretski (IGLD-84-228-241-130.inter.net.il [84.228.241.130]) by romy.inter.net.il (MOS 3.5.6-GR) with ESMTP id AUA05426 (AUTH halo1); Sat, 19 Mar 2005 17:48:35 +0200 (IST) Original-To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailer: emacs 22.0.50 (via feedmail 8 I) and Blat ver 2.4 In-reply-to: (message from PT on Sat, 19 Mar 2005 15:23:46 +0100) X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org X-MailScanner-To: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:24958 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.help:24958 > From: PT > Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 15:23:46 +0100 > > On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 12:56:17 +0200, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > > Some of the ``cool stuff'' is turned off because the veteran users > > find it so annoying that they protest vociferously each time someone > > suggests them to be turned on by default. > > And this is the wrong point of view. I'm a veteran user. I can turn > anything off I don't like That's true, but requiring that veterans make significant changes to their customizations with each new release is too harsh on them. They protest, and we don't want to alienate them. If you ever maintained a package with a large user base, you will understand. > but a newbie cannot turn the useful things on until he gets to know > emacs better. I still don't see why you think it's so hard: I mentioned here already the Options menu, which makes it easy to turn on features we think are used by many users. > The problem is they usually give up > (at least the ones I met), because they miss the convenience features! Which convenience features that aren't found under Options are missed? > I support turning every useful feature on by default. Me too, but you _are_ aware that the definition of ``useful'' here is the crux of the problem, right? What's ``useful'' for one user might well be ``annoying'' for another. > I don't really see how a veteran user can find anything annoying. Well, perhaps you should think again, then. > I can put some lines into my emacs and I won't see that thing ever > again. That's what is annoying.