From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Eli Zaretskii" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 12:47:54 +0200 Message-ID: <01c52c71$Blat.v2.4$400dcce0@zahav.net.il> References: <874qf8d3cy.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1111230817 31191 80.91.229.2 (19 Mar 2005 11:13:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 11:13:37 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Mar 19 12:13:37 2005 Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DCbtc-0008WI-IG for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 12:13:32 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DCcAI-0001RU-D1 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 06:30:46 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DCbrc-0005NJ-MX for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 06:11:29 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DCbrU-0005Md-Ry for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 06:11:22 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DCbrI-0005MR-0X for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 06:11:11 -0500 Original-Received: from [192.114.186.24] (helo=legolas.inter.net.il) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DCbXV-00059Q-M9 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 05:50:42 -0500 Original-Received: from zaretski (IGLD-84-228-241-130.inter.net.il [84.228.241.130]) by legolas.inter.net.il (MOS 3.5.6-GR) with ESMTP id DYV72469 (AUTH halo1); Sat, 19 Mar 2005 12:50:39 +0200 (IST) Original-To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailer: emacs 22.0.50 (via feedmail 8 I) and Blat ver 2.4 In-reply-to: (message from PT on Sat, 19 Mar 2005 06:40:54 +0100) X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org X-MailScanner-To: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:24936 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.help:24936 > From: PT > Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 06:40:54 +0100 > > > C-h t > > That's exactly what I meant. The key bindings shown in the tutorial are > leftovers from a world when there were no arrow keys on keyboards. ??? When was the last time you've read the tutorial? The current version does mention the arrow keys, and it also explains the reasons why the tutorial teaches the alternate key bindings. (One reason it does not mention -- that the arrow keys should be known to everyone -- is so obvious that I'd expect each user to not expect these keys to be mentioned in the tutorial.) If you think the tutorial text should be changed somehow to be more friendly to newbies, please suggest specific changes to it (but be sure to read the current version first!), and send your suggestions to emacs-devel@gnu.org. TIA. > I may sound like a heretic, but I don't think a newbie should learn new > keybindings for cursor movement. Newbies don't _have_ to learn them, but the tutorial explains why Emacs developers _suggest_ that they do. > VI is not a more usual editor. KEdit is. Notepad is. If someone is happy with Notepad, they probably don't need Emacs. And btw, Notepad doesn't have _any_ key bindings besides the arrow keys, CUA cut/paste ones (which Emacs supports), and F3 for FindNext. So a convert from Notepad should have no problem learning the Emacs keybindings. > >> F1 for help, F2 for save file, F3 for load file, etc. > > > > Where did you find these keybindings? I've never seen them! You call > > them Familiar??? > > You are probably a Unix veteran. They are familiar to anyone on Windows > for example and much more friendly than C-x C-f. Please be specific; slogans are not useful when you are criticizing a UI. So please give us a list of Windows programs that use those F1-F3 bindings, which make them ``familiar to anyone on Windows''. Emacs does support "F1 for help", as you probably should have known, so only F2, F3, and whatever hides under ``etc.'' are the issue. > The idea is to relieve the initial pain of meeting Emacs the first time, > so that they don't give it up in disgust, before they get to know it > better. That's a goal that Emacs developers will always applaud. But please give specific suggestions, and please post them to emacs-devel@gnu.org, since most Emacs developers don't read this forum.