From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Paul Eggert Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#40671: [DOC] modify literal objects Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 23:28:43 -0700 Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <012e8bc3-df4b-3884-4e54-5fe7ef4248cb@cs.ucla.edu> References: <60b88f52-c50d-c57a-9ce5-495e6157d36e@cs.ucla.edu> <0721d8c1-4fe3-335c-7dbc-171487cb648a@yandex.ru> <6d1015da-0dc1-376c-f84b-5e3ee3149213@cs.ucla.edu> <286139d2-bbe1-2d5a-bec1-f781666376f1@yandex.ru> <10b89e6f-6fa6-f855-65b6-3361a74472d3@cs.ucla.edu> <8542efe2-c4a6-1da5-2513-7ffcaa6c4ec9@yandex.ru> <293d0eab-4617-08fe-aafa-d6841a750af0@cs.ucla.edu> <4085994e-f42d-b90f-9c86-ad42689bbff2@yandex.ru> <9cfc3b63-7df6-145a-8a78-e3320b6d3861@cs.ucla.edu> <72399223-0ab5-dbe4-5027-d929450a4df0@yandex.ru> <1a2d0454-baa4-9831-0e2c-4411eda1c2fe@yandex.ru> <278a1350-8b9e-4f3b-854a-723d578129f3@default> <6cbe3c10-6d81-f2be-30d7-17096b3f3517@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="22401"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 Cc: Michael Heerdegen , Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= , ke.vigouroux@laposte.net, 40671@debbugs.gnu.org, Richard Stallman To: Dmitry Gutov , Drew Adams Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat May 02 08:29:13 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jUleD-0005hc-GF for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 02 May 2020 08:29:13 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:49564 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jUleC-0004BF-JW for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 02 May 2020 02:29:12 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:45930) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jUle3-0004B5-8R for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 02 May 2020 02:29:03 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jUle2-0002hv-Os for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 02 May 2020 02:29:03 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]:39568) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jUle2-0002hq-BF for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 02 May 2020 02:29:02 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jUle2-0006qp-7g for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 02 May 2020 02:29:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Paul Eggert Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 02 May 2020 06:29:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 40671 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch Original-Received: via spool by 40671-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B40671.158840093126316 (code B ref 40671); Sat, 02 May 2020 06:29:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 40671) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 May 2020 06:28:51 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51114 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jUldr-0006qO-D1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 May 2020 02:28:51 -0400 Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:48356) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jUldq-0006qC-9H for 40671@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 May 2020 02:28:50 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC036160066; Fri, 1 May 2020 23:28:44 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id 3khhJEQUrFRf; Fri, 1 May 2020 23:28:43 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D7DD1600CC; Fri, 1 May 2020 23:28:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id AJdzBCTfPU1E; Fri, 1 May 2020 23:28:43 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.1.9] (cpe-23-242-74-103.socal.res.rr.com [23.242.74.103]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 416B9160066; Fri, 1 May 2020 23:28:43 -0700 (PDT) Autocrypt: addr=eggert@cs.ucla.edu; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgUFVCTElDIEtFWSBCTE9DSy0tLS0tCgptUUlOQkV5QWNtUUJFQURB QXlIMnhvVHU3cHBHNUQzYThGTVpFb243NGRDdmM0K3ExWEEySjJ0QnkycHdhVHFmCmhweHhk R0E5Smo1MFVKM1BENGJTVUVnTjh0TFowc2FuNDdsNVhUQUZMaTI0NTZjaVNsNW04c0thSGxH ZHQ5WG0KQUF0bVhxZVpWSVlYL1VGUzk2ZkR6ZjR4aEVtbS95N0xiWUVQUWRVZHh1NDd4QTVL aFRZcDVibHRGM1dZRHoxWQpnZDdneDA3QXV3cDdpdzdlTnZub0RUQWxLQWw4S1lEWnpiRE5D UUdFYnBZM2VmWkl2UGRlSStGV1FONFcra2doCnkrUDZhdTZQcklJaFlyYWV1YTdYRGRiMkxT MWVuM1NzbUUzUWpxZlJxSS9BMnVlOEpNd3N2WGUvV0szOEV6czYKeDc0aVRhcUkzQUZINmls QWhEcXBNbmQvbXNTRVNORnQ3NkRpTzFaS1FNcjlhbVZQa25qZlBtSklTcWRoZ0IxRApsRWR3 MzRzUk9mNlY4bVp3MHhmcVQ2UEtFNDZMY0ZlZnpzMGtiZzRHT1JmOHZqRzJTZjF0azVlVThN Qml5Ti9iClowM2JLTmpOWU1wT0REUVF3dVA4NGtZTGtYMndCeHhNQWhCeHdiRFZadWR6eERa SjFDMlZYdWpDT0pWeHEya2wKakJNOUVUWXVVR3FkNzVBVzJMWHJMdzYrTXVJc0hGQVlBZ1Jy NytLY3dEZ0JBZndoU In-Reply-To: Content-Language: en-US X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-Received-From: 209.51.188.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:179478 Archived-At: On 5/1/20 6:07 PM, Dmitry Gutov wrote: > They very rarely use the phrase "constant objects", however. Instead, it's > almost always "objects that appears as a constant [in code]", "object ... used > as a quoted constant", "object may not ... appear as constants in code", > "objects are similar as a constant". We could use similar circumlocutions. Or instead of saying "constant" we could say "unchanging", as distinct from "unchangeable". (It beats "object-that-should-not-be-changed" or "glass object - you changed it, you broke it!". :-) The usual word for this notion is "constant", though. > IOW, it's the difference between constant values and constant pointers to > [mutable] values. I don't see that. A constant (or "unchanging") string is like a mutable string, except you shouldn't change it. There's no sense in CLtL in which a mutable object must be implemented via a pointer to a value whereas a constant must not be implemented that way. > there is no juxtaposition of "mutable objects" vs "constant objects" > anywhere in there Yes, the mutable/immutable terminology revolution happened mostly after CLtL was written. > So the section > "Constants and Mutability", even though it has valuable information, could use a > full rewrite. And could probably move to end of the "Self-Evaluating Forms" > section. Whether an object is constant is distinct from whether it's derived from a self-evaluating form, because one can have constants that were never derived from any self-evaluating form. Any doc rewrite should be careful to keep the two notions distinct, quite plausibily (though not necessarily) in different sections. > I can try to make a patch, but at this point is would consist mostly of deletions. Certainly some stuff could be deleted (the tutorial could be trimmed as you suggest, for example), but we should keep the baby while we're throwing out the bathwater. And if we're using circumlocutions the text is likely to get longer, not shorter.