From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: RE: usability problem of emacs describe-mode Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 10:24:28 -0800 Message-ID: <010e01c9983f$7653ba10$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> References: <76fcf833-ad89-44f2-b227-e18295317ca2@p13g2000yqc.googlegroups.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1235672708 437 80.91.229.12 (26 Feb 2009 18:25:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 18:25:08 +0000 (UTC) To: "'Xah Lee'" , Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Feb 26 19:26:24 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1Lckw5-0003im-Id for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Thu, 26 Feb 2009 19:26:17 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56811 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Lckuk-0005gM-La for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Thu, 26 Feb 2009 13:24:54 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1LckuQ-0005g9-F6 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Feb 2009 13:24:34 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1LckuM-0005fm-Sp for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Feb 2009 13:24:34 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=58112 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1LckuM-0005fi-Ot for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Feb 2009 13:24:30 -0500 Original-Received: from rcsinet12.oracle.com ([148.87.113.124]:23120 helo=rgminet12.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1LckuL-0005bf-QX for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Feb 2009 13:24:30 -0500 Original-Received: from acsinet13.oracle.com (acsinet13.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by rgminet12.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n1QIOLVm008339 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 26 Feb 2009 18:24:23 GMT Original-Received: from acsmt705.oracle.com (acsmt705.oracle.com [141.146.40.83]) by acsinet13.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n1QIOVu4022544; Thu, 26 Feb 2009 18:24:32 GMT Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 26 Feb 2009 18:24:20 +0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcmX7d0k9CcADobPSCi0XBrGNNeEHAAR94Rg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Source-IP: acsmt705.oracle.com [141.146.40.83] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090208.49A6DE56.00CA:SCFSTAT928724,ss=1,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:62409 Archived-At: > If people think this is a problem, please perhaps file a > bug report to FSF. (Alt+x report-emacs-bug) Why not `M-x report-emacs-bug' yourself, rather than ask others to do so? Quicker, and just as effective. > There are many diverse solutions [better ways to show ^L] > on the web, but they need to become part of emacs out of > the box. Filing an enhancement request through a bug report is one way to try to improve vanilla Emacs, but discussion about such requests is typically more limited and less fruitful than discussion in emacs-devel@gnu.org. Reasons: (1) more people subscribe to emacs-devel, (2) people tend to look to bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org for bug reports, not for enhancement requests, (3) enhancement requests are sometimes forgotten, even if not overlooked initially. That said, I do occasionally submit enhancement requests rather than start a discussion at emacs-devel. One reason can be to log a suggestion for later consideration. Wrt prettifying ^L in vanilla Emacs: I proposed that to emacs-devel years ago. Here are some relevant threads: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2006-12/msg00464.html http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2004-12/msg01035.html And here's a related thread from 2004 about the describe-mode problems: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2004-05/msg00275.html IOW, these things have been brought up and discussed before. Like it or not, the inescapable place to promote possible improvements to vanilla Emacs is emacs-devel@gnu.org (not help-gnu-emacs). If you are truly interested in changing vanilla Emacs, then emacs-devel is the mountain pass that you must climb. Lowland tavern discussion among comrades who agree can make one feel good, but it is no substitute for scaling the mountain and confronting the monstrous pass guardians. Only those with the keys to the pass can unbar the way. C'est la viemacs. Soliciting more bug-report voices doesn't really help promote a given change you want. More voices at emacs-devel can help. Instead of encouraging people to file the same bug, encourage them to add their voices to emacs-devel. The alternative to improving vanilla Emacs is personal customization or providing extension libraries to share. Some people only work within emacs-devel to improve vanilla Emacs; some people only provide extension code; some people do both, to varying degrees. Eventually, some add-on features do get copied or merged into vanilla Emacs. I suggest that you either code your ideas or add them to emacs-devel.