From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Bikeshedding go! Why is unbound? Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 19:14:50 -0800 Message-ID: <00C8C02E21D240F0B8C2B80BBB2B4924@us.oracle.com> References: <315B881CD79A43A9BABD5145EF4BFFE6@us.oracle.com> <34509A44D5C34DEE8812226B2CB83C93@us.oracle.com> <7F7ECA88AABE4255B11E206CB4546BF4@us.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1295320532 13305 80.91.229.12 (18 Jan 2011 03:15:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 03:15:32 +0000 (UTC) Cc: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, pj@irregularexpressions.net, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "'Lennart Borgman'" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jan 18 04:15:27 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Pf22S-0004rz-5W for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 18 Jan 2011 04:15:27 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45676 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Pf22L-000211-K2 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 17 Jan 2011 22:15:13 -0500 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=33828 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Pf22H-00020w-Hd for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jan 2011 22:15:10 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Pf22G-0002gW-D8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jan 2011 22:15:09 -0500 Original-Received: from rcsinet10.oracle.com ([148.87.113.121]:63153) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Pf22G-0002gS-0G for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jan 2011 22:15:08 -0500 Original-Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by rcsinet10.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id p0I3EuJ3024790 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 18 Jan 2011 03:14:58 GMT Original-Received: from acsmt355.oracle.com (acsmt355.oracle.com [141.146.40.155]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id p0I2kAbi000585; Tue, 18 Jan 2011 03:14:55 GMT Original-Received: from abhmt009.oracle.com by acsmt353.oracle.com with ESMTP id 967002661295320487; Mon, 17 Jan 2011 19:14:47 -0800 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.220.70) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Mon, 17 Jan 2011 19:14:47 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: Acu2sGoORFW8JGKRSdePWdkXZk7AxQAAVS3w In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5994 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:134683 Archived-At: > > Least surprise also means that Emacs tells users what's=20 > > happening. =A0My own preference would be to not bind the > > key by default and give users a new command > > to bind it to, to pass it through to Windows. >=20 > Those two things are contradictory, aren't they? Which two things - expectations of Emacs users and expectations of = Windows users? Yes. Life is contradictory. Which users and their expectations = do we cater to more in Emacs on Windows? > And for default things we should care mostly for new users, or? We can discuss the default behavior separately. You know my preference. But the a-b-c I outlined says nothing about the default behavior of any = given key. It says only that if a key is both unbound and not passed to = Windows then we tell the user it is unbound. If key Alt-f4 is unbound and in `w32-passthrough-events' then Windows = users who are Emacs newbies will not be surprised, but Emacs users will be = surprised. If it is bound or it is not in `w32-passthrough-events' then Windows = newbies to Emacs will be surprised, but Emacs users will not be surprised. What is the "least surprise" for our users? Does it mean preferentially = (a) Windows users while learning Emacs or (b) most Emacs users most of the = time? We can disagree. =20 > an unbound key to be sent to the operating system (as is > the default for GUI systems) Really? Not in Emacs - that's not the default behavior for unbound = keys. There are apparently cases where Emacs cannot do anything to prevent an OS/window mgr from grabbing an unbound key, but that is certainly not = the default behavior for unbound keys in Emacs.