From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Tentative diagnosis of TMM's problem. [Re: Enabling TransientMarkMode by default] Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 09:10:03 -0800 Message-ID: <006d01c874ac$9a7adfc0$0600a8c0@us.oracle.com> References: <20080220200142.GA1979@muc.de><006e01c8740e$366ebbd0$c2b22382@us.oracle.com><20080221081923.GB1891@muc.de><002801c8746e$413695a0$0600a8c0@us.oracle.com> <86hcg2shp4.fsf@lola.quinscape.zz> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1203649931 13207 80.91.229.12 (22 Feb 2008 03:12:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 03:12:11 +0000 (UTC) Cc: rms@gnu.org, 'Sascha Wilde' , lennart.borgman@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, juri@jurta.org, dann@ics.uci.edu, 'Stefan Monnier' , storm@cua.dk, 'Alan Mackenzie' , 'Miles Bader' To: "'David Kastrup'" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Feb 22 04:12:34 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1JSOKs-0002ge-Qu for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 22 Feb 2008 04:12:31 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JSOKN-0001C0-LD for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 22:11:59 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JSExE-0005PG-CM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 12:11:28 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JSExD-0005OJ-5J for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 12:11:27 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JSExC-0005O8-NQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 12:11:26 -0500 Original-Received: from agminet01.oracle.com ([141.146.126.228]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1JSEx1-0004Ud-VI; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 12:11:16 -0500 Original-Received: from agmgw2.us.oracle.com (agmgw2.us.oracle.com [152.68.180.213]) by agminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.4/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id m1LHB1HA024753; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 11:11:01 -0600 Original-Received: from acsmt351.oracle.com (acsmt351.oracle.com [141.146.40.151]) by agmgw2.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.0/Switch-3.2.0) with ESMTP id m1LEu235013073; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 10:11:00 -0700 Original-Received: from inet-141-146-46-1.oracle.com by acsmt350.oracle.com with ESMTP id 3584756391203613805; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 09:10:05 -0800 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/141.144.81.25) by bhmail.oracle.com (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 09:10:04 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: Ach0eDEtkjjkZFrYRlmsIPQ+fxP0SgALRY1Q In-Reply-To: <86hcg2shp4.fsf@lola.quinscape.zz> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Whitelist: TRUE X-Whitelist: TRUE X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.4-2.6 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 22:07:01 -0500 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:89919 Archived-At: > > What I threw out as a suggestion is to let users who choose > > so get rid of some of the annoying highlighting for t-m mode > > by accepting to explicitly activate the region whenever > > they want to use active-region operations. The change would > > be to simply not let C-SPC activate the region. > > We already have that in Emacs 22. Great minds think alike, I guess. ;-) Thanks for letting me know. > Please get up to scratch before proposing existing features. My ignorance is unpardonable. You can whip me now. I see you've already got your costume ready. > (info "(emacs) Momentary Mark") Yes, that's the idea, though a simple C-x C-x won't activate the mark with the current implementation, as it would with my suggestion. Even C-x C-x C-x C-x is easier than C-u C-x C-x. And I'm not sure I see the point of C-SPC C-SPC - who would really use it and why. I understand the aim, I think, but I doubt many will use it. Sounds like it was added just to be complete, to give people a way to give themselves on demand the highlighting they find so annoying when automatic. Anyway, since this is already available, what about: 1. Making it easier for people to activate the region. C-u C-x C-x is too cumbersome. It should be at least as easy to activate mark as to set mark. 2. Advertising this more - especially to newbies. We should say that *this is the way to select* text, besides using the mouse. 3. Making `mark-even-if-inactive' = t the default. With that, I think more people will be happier. Everyone will still be able to always act on the region at all times. But newbies and others will not be confused or annoyed by an active region popping up just from C-SPC. And the advantages of t-m mode will be easily available on demand. The only people who would prefer something else would then be, I suspect: 1. Those who like the current t-m activation by C-SPC. No one has spoken up in favor of that. 2. Those who don't even like the idea of being *able* to activate the region. They need only avoid activating it explicitly. But I do think we should make it easier to activate the region than C-u C-x C-x. Use of the active region should be encouraged, not discouraged. The doc for all related stuff, such as delete-selection mode, should then be updated to account for (mention) this. The doc should generally be written from the point of view of this being the standard scenario. That's assuming we decide that it should be the standard scenario.