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From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com>
To: "'Stefan Monnier'" <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>,
	"'Sascha Wilde'" <wilde@sha-bang.de>
Cc: rms@gnu.org, lennart.borgman@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org,
	juri@jurta.org, dann@ics.uci.edu, storm@cua.dk, acm@muc.de,
	'Miles Bader' <miles@gnu.org>
Subject: RE: Enabling Transient Mark Mode by default
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 11:09:36 -0800	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <005101c873f4$230d0750$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <jwv4pc3h9l6.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org>

> Whenever I use "emacs -Q" or some similar "vanilla Emacs", the first
> thing that I'm urged to do is M-x transient-mark-mode (and it was
> already N°1 back when fotn-lock-mode wasn't the default).
> 
> Of course, I'm sure I'd be able to learn to live without it.  It seems
> like an option affect people *very* strongly, so those who want it
> *really* want it, and those who don't *really* don't.
> 
> So, that's for my personal preference.  As to why turn it on *by
> default*, here are some reasons why I think it should be ON 
> by default:
> - Visual feedback about the mark's position and active status.
>   I and all (X)Emacs users I know personally (i.e. off-this-list) and
>   with whom I've talked about transient-mark-mode use
>   transient-mark-mode (or its XEmacs equivalent) and find it difficult
>   to use Emacs without it because of the lack of visual feedback about
>   where the mark really is.  I do not claim that this small group of
>   people is representative, but it does seem relevant.
> - Extended semantics for various commands.
>   Many commands now offer to operate on the region if the region is
>   active but only when transient-mark-mode is ON.
>   This functionality is now also available to non-tmm-users via the
>   temporary-transient-mark-mode (C-SPC C-SPC), admittedly, but while
>   C-SPC C-SPC is easy enough to use, I always find myself 
>   selecting the
>   region *before* knowing that I want to use such a command (or
>   selecting the region with something else than C-SPC, typically
>   C-M-SPC), so I end up having to use C-u C-x C-x which I find a lot
>   more inconvenient.

Well, I thought I might successfully stay out of this calorific thread ;-),
but here goes -

I agree with what Stefan has said, including the reasons he gave for turning
t-m mode on by default.

For the record: I used Emacs for many years with no problem before t-m mode
existed and before there was any mouse support. So I should be able to
understand to some extent those who say they are used to doing without such
features. 

Personally, however, I had no difficulty getting used to t-m mode. I
immediately adopted it, and I haven't looked back. Likewise, FWIW, it didn't
take me long to start using the mouse on occasion. I tend to use the mouse
now (clicking, not dragging) for selecting text and sexps in some
situations, even though much of the time I do not use it. It is a
random-access pointing device, and random access can be an advantage in some
contexts.  anti-rodent -flames > /dev/null

FWIW, I have never experienced the issues that others have cited wrt t-m
mode. I cannot recognize the behavior behind statements such as these:

> Transient-mark-mode messes with the normal work flow (and the
> active region) in a way that is not helpful.

> it makes uses of the mark ring other than marking text
> very unpleasant

> using the mark to mark interesting spots in an buffer so
> that one can easily jump between them....  In such cases the
> highlighting of text between point and the last mark is
> distracting and useless.

I don't discount others experiencing such problems. I'm unexperienced in
that way; that's all. Transient-mark mode doesn't interfere with my work
flow at all - quite the contrary, but maybe my work doesn't flow in the same
direction as yours.

So count me as one person who was quite used to the "old" way but
nevertheless changed to the "new" way. That doesn't mean the new trick is
right for other old dogs - YMMV. It just means that there are some people
used to living without t-m mode who can end up appreciating it.

My vote (we've been through this before...) is for delete-selection mode to
be on by default. Second choice: transient-mark mode on by default. In
either case, `mark-even-if-inactive' should be non-nil by default. Just one
vote.

Wrt emacs -nw: I can't speak to this, because I no longer use Emacs without
a window manager, but from Alan's report, perhaps the default should be
different for emacs -nw. He seemed to be reporting horrible dark blue
flashes or something. Maybe others can comment on whether the default should
differ in this case.





  parent reply	other threads:[~2008-02-20 19:09 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 274+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2006-08-28  7:48 change cursor type when idle Drew Adams
2006-08-28  9:54 ` Kim F. Storm
2006-08-28 15:00   ` Drew Adams
2006-08-28 15:30     ` Lennart Borgman
2006-08-28 16:08       ` David Hansen
2006-08-28 16:09       ` Drew Adams
2006-08-28 16:21         ` Lennart Borgman
2006-08-28 16:58           ` Drew Adams
2006-08-28 21:27             ` Juri Linkov
2006-08-28 23:13               ` Drew Adams
2006-08-29 20:27                 ` Juri Linkov
2006-08-29 20:51                   ` Drew Adams
2006-08-29 13:51               ` Mathias Dahl
2006-08-29 13:59                 ` Drew Adams
2006-08-29 20:17                   ` Kevin Rodgers
2006-08-28 21:06       ` Kim F. Storm
2006-08-28 21:44   ` Kim F. Storm
2006-08-29  1:18     ` Luc Teirlinck
2006-08-29  7:44       ` Kim F. Storm
2006-08-29 13:38         ` Drew Adams
2006-08-28 22:10 ` Richard Stallman
2007-07-01 20:24   ` Drew Adams
2007-07-02 19:47     ` Richard Stallman
2008-02-11  7:48     ` Drew Adams
2008-02-11 10:11       ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2008-02-13  0:25         ` Richard Stallman
2008-02-11 21:10       ` Richard Stallman
2008-02-12 14:30         ` Dan Nicolaescu
2008-02-12 14:43           ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-02-12 15:10             ` Dan Nicolaescu
2008-02-12 15:23               ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-02-12 16:20                 ` Dan Nicolaescu
2008-02-12 16:28                   ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-02-12 16:43                     ` Dan Nicolaescu
2008-02-12 17:12                       ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-02-12 18:07                         ` Dan Nicolaescu
2008-02-12 18:20                           ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-02-12 18:34                             ` Drew Adams
2008-02-12 19:34                               ` Juri Linkov
2008-02-12 21:45                               ` Juri Linkov
2008-02-12 18:44                             ` Dan Nicolaescu
2008-02-12 20:54                               ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-02-12 15:19           ` Drew Adams
2008-02-12 15:35             ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-02-12 16:11             ` Dan Nicolaescu
2008-02-12 16:21               ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-02-12 16:27                 ` David Kastrup
2008-02-12 16:36                   ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-02-12 16:55                 ` Dan Nicolaescu
2008-02-12 17:14                   ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-02-12 17:45             ` Richard Stallman
2008-02-13 11:52               ` Kim F. Storm
2008-02-13 15:45                 ` Stefan Monnier
2008-02-13 16:04                   ` CUA-mode features and documenation (was: Re: change cursor type when idle) Kim F. Storm
2008-02-13 16:23                     ` Dan Nicolaescu
2008-02-13 22:45                       ` CUA-mode features and documenation Juri Linkov
2008-02-13 22:59                         ` Dan Nicolaescu
2008-02-13 23:18                         ` Miles Bader
2008-02-14  0:01                           ` Juri Linkov
2008-02-14  0:50                             ` Miles Bader
2008-02-14  0:58                               ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-02-14  1:12                                 ` Miles Bader
2008-02-14 18:10                                 ` Richard Stallman
2008-02-15 17:11                                   ` Dan Nicolaescu
2008-02-17 13:22                                     ` Richard Stallman
2008-02-17 18:05                                       ` Drew Adams
2008-02-18 11:40                                         ` Richard Stallman
2008-02-18 13:44                                         ` Kim F. Storm
2008-02-18 15:52                                           ` Drew Adams
2008-02-17 19:51                                       ` Miles Bader
2008-02-17 22:24                                         ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-02-17 22:30                                           ` Miles Bader
2008-02-18 13:48                                             ` Kim F. Storm
2008-02-17 13:22                                     ` Richard Stallman
2008-02-17 16:58                                       ` Dan Nicolaescu
2008-02-17 18:06                                         ` Drew Adams
2008-02-18 11:40                                         ` Richard Stallman
2008-02-19  8:52                                         ` Enabling Transient Mark Mode by default [Re: CUA-mode features and documenation] Alan Mackenzie
2008-02-19  9:38                                           ` Dan Nicolaescu
2008-02-19 19:01                                             ` Enabling Transient Mark Mode by default Alan Mackenzie
2008-02-19 20:41                                               ` Stefan Monnier
2008-02-19 22:43                                               ` Miles Bader
2008-02-19 23:45                                                 ` Mathias Dahl
2008-02-19 23:49                                                   ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-02-20  0:12                                                     ` David Kastrup
2008-02-20  0:19                                                       ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-02-20  0:30                                                         ` David Kastrup
2008-02-20  0:49                                                           ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-02-20  7:48                                                             ` David Kastrup
2008-02-20  0:16                                                     ` Miles Bader
2008-02-20  3:49                                                     ` Stefan Monnier
2008-02-20  9:56                                                     ` Mathias Dahl
2008-02-20 16:32                                                       ` CUA-*mode (was: Enabling Transient Mark Mode by default) Stefan Monnier
2008-02-20 17:27                                                         ` Mathias Dahl
2008-02-20  8:59                                                 ` Enabling Transient Mark Mode by default Richard Stallman
2008-02-20 12:27                                                   ` Sascha Wilde
2008-02-20 12:52                                                     ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-02-20 13:09                                                       ` David Kastrup
2008-02-20 14:33                                                         ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-02-20 15:11                                                           ` David Kastrup
2008-02-20 15:43                                                             ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-02-20 15:55                                                       ` David Reitter
2008-02-20 16:04                                                         ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-02-20 16:27                                                           ` David Reitter
2008-02-21 15:34                                                             ` Dan Nicolaescu
2008-02-20 16:23                                                         ` David Kastrup
2008-02-21  3:52                                                         ` Provide different sets of .emacs [Was: Enabling Transient Mark Mode by default] William Xu
2008-02-21  4:04                                                           ` Provide different sets of .emacs William Xu
2008-02-20 16:14                                                       ` Enabling Transient Mark Mode by default Mathias Dahl
2008-02-20 16:27                                                         ` David Kastrup
2008-02-20 17:21                                                           ` Mathias Dahl
2008-02-20 17:30                                                             ` David Kastrup
2008-02-20 20:48                                                               ` Mathias Dahl
2008-02-20 21:07                                                                 ` David Kastrup
2008-02-20 16:52                                                     ` Stefan Monnier
2008-02-20 17:00                                                       ` David Kastrup
2008-02-20 17:58                                                         ` Stefan Monnier
2008-02-20 19:30                                                           ` David De La Harpe Golden
2008-02-20 20:09                                                             ` David Kastrup
2008-02-20 20:41                                                               ` David De La Harpe Golden
2008-02-21 17:45                                                                 ` Juri Linkov
2008-02-21 23:01                                                                   ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-02-21 23:24                                                                     ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-02-22  3:18                                                                   ` Miles Bader
     [not found]                                                                     ` <8e24944a0802212139r2bae3597ke49c5c6da65da445@mail.gmail.com>
2008-02-22  5:49                                                                       ` Fwd: " David De La Harpe Golden
2008-02-22 22:57                                                                     ` Richard Stallman
2008-02-23  0:09                                                                       ` Miles Bader
2008-02-23  0:31                                                                         ` Mike Mattie
2008-02-23  1:02                                                                           ` Drew Adams
2008-02-23  1:20                                                                         ` Bastien
2008-02-23  9:16                                                                           ` Sascha Wilde
2008-02-23  1:17                                                                       ` Bastien
2008-02-23  5:16                                                                         ` Stefan Monnier
2008-02-23 10:30                                                                           ` Bastien
2008-02-23 19:29                                                                         ` Richard Stallman
2008-02-20 21:44                                                           ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-02-21  9:16                                                             ` Richard Stallman
2008-02-21  9:16                                                           ` Richard Stallman
2008-02-21 14:31                                                             ` Stefan Monnier
2008-02-22 10:47                                                               ` Bastien
2008-02-22 13:11                                                                 ` Sascha Wilde
2008-02-22 14:16                                                                   ` Bastien Guerry
2008-02-22 14:48                                                                     ` David De La Harpe Golden
2008-02-22 18:06                                                                       ` Bastien
2008-02-22 15:53                                                                     ` Sascha Wilde
2008-02-22 18:12                                                                       ` Bastien
2008-02-22 22:20                                                                         ` Mike Mattie
2008-02-22 23:09                                                                         ` Mike Mattie
2008-02-23 19:28                                                                         ` Richard Stallman
2008-02-22 14:57                                                                 ` Andreas Schwab
2008-02-22 16:27                                                                 ` Leo
2008-02-22 22:57                                                                 ` Richard Stallman
2008-02-21 22:28                                                           ` Richard Stallman
2008-02-20 17:35                                                       ` Sascha Wilde
2008-02-20 18:04                                                         ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-02-20 19:02                                                         ` Evans Winner
2008-02-20 21:13                                                           ` Jason Earl
2008-02-20 21:24                                                             ` David Kastrup
2008-02-20 22:46                                                               ` David De La Harpe Golden
2008-02-21  7:30                                                                 ` martin rudalics
2008-02-21 22:29                                                                   ` scroll-restore.el Richard Stallman
2008-02-22 16:11                                                                     ` scroll-restore.el David De La Harpe Golden
2008-02-22 19:32                                                                       ` scroll-restore.el martin rudalics
2008-02-22 19:41                                                                         ` scroll-restore.el David De La Harpe Golden
2008-02-22 19:51                                                                           ` scroll-restore.el martin rudalics
2008-02-22 19:26                                                                     ` scroll-restore.el martin rudalics
2008-02-20 23:15                                                               ` Enabling Transient Mark Mode by default Jason Earl
2008-02-20 23:30                                                                 ` David Kastrup
2008-02-21  0:42                                                                   ` Jason Earl
2008-02-21  9:57                                                                     ` David Kastrup
2008-02-21 14:36                                                                       ` Stefan Monnier
2008-02-21 14:41                                                                         ` David Kastrup
2008-02-21 16:13                                                                           ` Stefan Monnier
2008-02-21 16:26                                                                             ` David Kastrup
2008-02-21 17:18                                                                               ` Stefan Monnier
2008-02-21 17:38                                                                                 ` David De La Harpe Golden
2008-02-21 17:52                                                                                   ` David De La Harpe Golden
2008-02-21 21:45                                                                                 ` David Kastrup
2008-02-21 22:24                                                                                   ` Miles Bader
2008-02-21 17:27                                                                             ` Drew Adams
2008-02-21 22:25                                                                               ` Miles Bader
2008-02-21 22:59                                                                                 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-02-21 23:17                                                                                   ` Miles Bader
2008-02-21 23:22                                                                                     ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-02-21 23:39                                                                                       ` Mathias Dahl
2008-02-21 23:45                                                                                         ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-02-21 23:10                                                                                 ` Drew Adams
2008-02-22 10:07                                                                                 ` Andreas Schwab
2008-02-22 12:19                                                                                   ` Tassilo Horn
2008-02-22 12:28                                                                                     ` David Kastrup
2008-02-22 22:57                                                                                       ` Richard Stallman
2008-02-22 23:14                                                                                         ` Stefan Monnier
2008-02-23  0:03                                                                                           ` Miles Bader
2008-02-23  0:14                                                                                             ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-02-23  8:04                                                                                             ` Mathias Dahl
2008-02-23  0:04                                                                                         ` Miles Bader
2008-02-23 19:29                                                                                           ` Richard Stallman
2008-02-23  0:14                                                                                         ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-02-23  0:21                                                                                           ` Miles Bader
2008-02-23  0:46                                                                                           ` Should M-SPC respect `sentence-end-double-space'? Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-02-23  0:46                                                                                             ` Paul Pogonyshev
2008-02-23  3:23                                                                                               ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-02-23  0:52                                                                                             ` Miles Bader
2008-02-23  3:11                                                                                               ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-02-23  3:47                                                                                                 ` Miles Bader
2008-02-23  8:33                                                                                                   ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-02-23 15:47                                                                                                     ` Stefan Monnier
2008-02-23 17:01                                                                                               ` Juri Linkov
2008-02-21 22:28                                                                   ` Enabling Transient Mark Mode by default Richard Stallman
2008-03-01 22:15                                                                     ` Glenn Morris
2008-03-01 22:40                                                                       ` Kim F. Storm
2008-03-02  2:56                                                                       ` Juri Linkov
2008-03-02 17:25                                                                         ` Richard Stallman
2008-03-02  5:51                                                                       ` Stefan Monnier
2008-03-02 16:09                                                                         ` Juri Linkov
2008-03-02 17:25                                                                       ` Richard Stallman
2008-02-21  9:16                                                           ` Richard Stallman
2008-02-21 12:07                                                             ` Robert J. Chassell
2008-02-20 21:15                                                         ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-02-21  9:16                                                           ` Richard Stallman
2008-02-21 15:55                                                             ` Luc Teirlinck
2008-02-22  3:31                                                             ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-02-22 22:57                                                               ` Richard Stallman
2008-02-23  0:08                                                                 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-02-21 22:27                                                         ` Richard Stallman
2008-02-20 19:09                                                       ` Drew Adams [this message]
2008-02-21  0:10                                                         ` Miles Bader
2008-02-21 22:28                                                           ` Richard Stallman
2008-02-23 11:00                                                           ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-02-20 20:01                                                       ` Tentative diagnosis of TMM's problem. [Re: Enabling Transient Mark Mode by default] Alan Mackenzie
2008-02-20 20:52                                                         ` Stefan Monnier
2008-02-20 22:16                                                           ` Tentative diagnosis of TMM's problem. [Re: Enabling TransientMark " Drew Adams
2008-02-20 22:32                                                             ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-02-20 22:45                                                               ` Drew Adams
2008-02-21  1:09                                                                 ` David De La Harpe Golden
2008-02-21  1:44                                                                   ` Drew Adams
2008-02-21  8:05                                                               ` Sven Joachim
2008-02-21  0:13                                                             ` Miles Bader
2008-02-21  1:44                                                               ` Drew Adams
2008-02-21  4:56                                                                 ` David De La Harpe Golden
2008-02-21 22:28                                                                 ` Richard Stallman
2008-02-21 17:46                                                               ` Juri Linkov
2008-02-21 22:28                                                               ` Tentative diagnosis of Transient Mark mode's " Richard Stallman
2008-02-21  8:19                                                             ` Tentative diagnosis of TMM's " Alan Mackenzie
2008-02-21  9:43                                                               ` Tentative diagnosis of TMM's problem. [Re: Enabling TransientMarkMode " Drew Adams
2008-02-21 10:54                                                                 ` David Kastrup
2008-02-21 17:10                                                                   ` Drew Adams
2008-02-21 19:28                                                                     ` Sascha Wilde
2008-02-21 21:42                                                                     ` David Kastrup
2008-02-22 11:58                                                                     ` Enabling Transient Mark Mode by default Robert J. Chassell
2008-02-22 14:49                                                                       ` David De La Harpe Golden
2008-02-22 16:37                                                                       ` Stefan Monnier
2008-02-21 10:59                                                                 ` Tentative diagnosis of TMM's problem. [Re: Enabling TransientMarkMode by default] Andreas Schwab
2008-02-21 16:55                                                                   ` Drew Adams
2008-02-21 22:29                                                                 ` Richard Stallman
2008-02-21  8:05                                                           ` Tentative diagnosis of TMM's problem. [Re: Enabling Transient Mark Mode " Alan Mackenzie
2008-02-21 14:54                                                             ` Stefan Monnier
2008-02-21 17:44                                                           ` Tentative diagnosis of TMM's problem Johan Bockgård
2008-02-21 19:21                                                             ` Stefan Monnier
2008-02-21 22:38                                                               ` Johan Bockgård
2008-02-22  1:51                                                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2008-02-21  9:16                                                         ` Tentative diagnosis of TMM's problem. [Re: Enabling Transient Mark Mode by default] Richard Stallman
2008-02-23 11:34                                                           ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-02-24  0:53                                                             ` Richard Stallman
2008-02-20 21:27                                                       ` Enabling Transient Mark Mode by default Juri Linkov
2008-02-19  9:48                                           ` Enabling Transient Mark Mode by default [Re: CUA-mode features and documenation] David Kastrup
2008-02-17 18:11                                     ` CUA-mode features and documenation David De La Harpe Golden
2008-02-14  1:54                               ` Leo
2008-02-13 22:00                 ` change cursor type when idle Richard Stallman
2008-02-14 13:16                   ` Kim F. Storm
2008-02-15  0:03                     ` Richard Stallman
2008-02-12 19:31           ` Juri Linkov
2008-02-12 21:23             ` Miles Bader
2008-02-12 21:42               ` Juri Linkov

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