From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: FW: Minibuf menu when minibuffer is standalone Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 15:11:01 -0800 Message-ID: <004001c883cd$2d0955e0$0600a8c0@us.oracle.com> References: <001001c883ab$528a70f0$0600a8c0@us.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0041_01C8838A.1EE615E0" X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1205273590 3521 80.91.229.12 (11 Mar 2008 22:13:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 22:13:10 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 'Emacs-Devel' To: "'Stefan Monnier'" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Mar 11 23:13:37 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1JZCj2-0008Dr-8M for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 11 Mar 2008 23:13:36 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JZCiT-0003t8-9B for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 11 Mar 2008 18:13:01 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JZCiO-0003sv-Be for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 11 Mar 2008 18:12:56 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JZCiN-0003sV-II for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 11 Mar 2008 18:12:56 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JZCiM-0003sJ-Ss for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 11 Mar 2008 18:12:55 -0400 Original-Received: from agminet01.oracle.com ([141.146.126.228]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1JZCiM-0003j9-30 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 11 Mar 2008 18:12:54 -0400 Original-Received: from agmgw2.us.oracle.com (agmgw2.us.oracle.com [152.68.180.213]) by agminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.4/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id m2BMCp0d028751; Tue, 11 Mar 2008 17:12:51 -0500 Original-Received: from acsmt351.oracle.com (acsmt351.oracle.com [141.146.40.151]) by agmgw2.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.0/Switch-3.2.0) with ESMTP id m2B9vgG2013942; Tue, 11 Mar 2008 16:12:50 -0600 Original-Received: from inet-141-146-46-1.oracle.com by acsmt351.oracle.com with ESMTP id 3608312151205273472; Tue, 11 Mar 2008 15:11:12 -0700 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/141.144.106.216) by bhmail.oracle.com (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Tue, 11 Mar 2008 15:11:11 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AciDvGdJvlPYug9hStypFu/fny2T0gADhMsg In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Whitelist: TRUE X-Whitelist: TRUE X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.4-2.6 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:92209 Archived-At: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C8838A.1EE615E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >> Consider as a possible enhancement somehow making the Minibuf > >> menu-bar menu available also when the minibuffer is in a > >> standalone frame (frame parameter minibuffer has value `only'). > >> > >> Because the minibuffer maps are local maps, when you have a > >> standalone minibuffer frame, which has no menu-bar, the Minibuf > >> menu-bar menu is not available anywhere. (The other frames do > >> not have minibuffers, and their buffers do not have the > >> minibuffer map as local map.) > >> > >> Perhaps menu Minibuf could somehow be made to appear in all > >> frames that have a menu-bar, whenever the minibuffer is active. > >> I'm not sure how that might be implemented, because it is good > >> to keep the current situation of the minibuffer maps being > >> local to the minibuffer. But if a good implementation could be > >> found, it would be desirable to have the Minibuf menu available > >> also for users who have a standalone minibuffer. > > Actually, I'd hate such a behavior. It's only relatively recently > (maybe a couple years) that I discovered the minibuffer menus, where > I tested Emacs in a non-separate-minibuffer-frame setting and > found the menu-bar switching just inconvenient. > > I mean, really, all that menu-bar-switching for what? > 3 miserable commands? Any such argument can be levelled equally agains the Minibuf menu in general - it has nothing to do with the suggestion to make the existing menu available to people who use a standalone minibuffer. Are you suggesting that we remove the Minibuf menu altogether? If so, then yes, let's answer that question first. If the answer is that it should be kept, then my question remains: Why not also make it available somehow for those with a standalone minibuffer? Wrt "all that menu-bar switching": Does that mean that you are also against the dynamic changing of menus in general, or at least when they have relatively few items? Wrt "3 miserable commands": 1. The number of commands shouldn't be a very important argument for keeping or tossing a menu. 2. Other applications might add additional items to the menu. In Icicles, for example, the Minibuf menu has all of the items in the attached screenshot. There are more than "3 miserable commands" there. And, as Lennart pointed out, menus can help you learn what's available and what key bindings there are - it's a lot quicker to check some things that way than consult the manual, even in Emacs. Out of curiosity, do you use menus at all? If not, do you at least see their value for others? I'm wondering if your response is about just the Minibuf menu or all menus. Let's separate the concerns, please. 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