From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#3035: 23.0.92; doc, terminology for graphics, display, terminal, etc. Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 00:52:08 -0700 Message-ID: <002301c9bffa$93ba5040$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> References: <001201c9bf7c$14221e40$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <83tz4mig8z.fsf@gnu.org> Reply-To: Drew Adams , 3035@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1240041887 17531 80.91.229.12 (18 Apr 2009 08:04:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 08:04:47 +0000 (UTC) To: "'Eli Zaretskii'" , <3035@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com> Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Apr 18 10:06:04 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1Lv5YM-0000df-4c for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 18 Apr 2009 10:05:54 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34055 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Lv5Wx-0007v0-3x for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 18 Apr 2009 04:04:07 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Lv5Wr-0007tt-F1 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Apr 2009 04:04:01 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Lv5Wm-0007nr-57 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Apr 2009 04:04:00 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=35167 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Lv5Wl-0007nR-PP for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Apr 2009 04:03:55 -0400 Original-Received: from rzlab.ucr.edu ([138.23.92.77]:40811) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1Lv5Wk-00035Q-VR for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Apr 2009 04:03:55 -0400 Original-Received: from rzlab.ucr.edu (rzlab.ucr.edu [127.0.0.1]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n3I83p0S001662; Sat, 18 Apr 2009 01:03:52 -0700 Original-Received: (from debbugs@localhost) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id n3I804EP000372; Sat, 18 Apr 2009 01:00:04 -0700 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Resent-To: bug-submit-list@donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 08:00:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 3035 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 3035-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B3035.124004114531339 (code B ref 3035); Sat, 18 Apr 2009 08:00:03 +0000 Original-Received: (at 3035) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 18 Apr 2009 07:52:25 +0000 X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. Original-Received: from acsinet11.oracle.com (acsinet11.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n3I7qJO7031318 for <3035@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Sat, 18 Apr 2009 00:52:21 -0700 Original-Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by acsinet11.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n3I7rYml015051 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 18 Apr 2009 07:53:35 GMT Original-Received: from acsmt700.oracle.com (acsmt700.oracle.com [141.146.40.70]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n3I7uLOl017819; Sat, 18 Apr 2009 07:56:22 GMT Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/98.210.250.59) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sat, 18 Apr 2009 00:51:59 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <83tz4mig8z.fsf@gnu.org> Thread-Index: Acm/9b3ctxueSp4cQ+S0DZJgUh1ODwAAMxTQ X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Source-IP: acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A010201.49E986AD.0053:SCFMA922111,ss=1,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 04:04:00 -0400 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:27306 Archived-At: > > 2. In the Elisp manual, I see the use of terms such as "graphical > > terminal", "graphicical display" (also "graphics display"), > > "(non-)graphics-capable display", "text terminals" (opposed to > > graphical), "graphic characters", and "graphical > > attributes", without any real explanation or definition. > > From the node "Frames", near the beginning: > > There are two classes of terminals: text-only terminals and > graphical terminals. Text-only terminals are non-graphics-capable > display devices, including "terminal emulators" such as xterm. On > text-only terminals, each frame occupies the entire > terminal screen; > although you can create additional frames and switch > between them, only > one frame can be shown at any given time. We refer to frames on > text-only terminals as "terminal frames". Graphical > terminals, on the > other hand, are graphics-capable windowing systems, such as the X > Window System. On a graphical terminal, Emacs can > display multiple > frames simultaneously. We refer to such frames as > "window frames". > > If this is not good enough, please tell what is missing. Yes, that helps wrt "graphical terminal" and "text terminal" (but not with the rest). It might help to add a cross-reference to node Frames from some of the nodes that use the terms it defines/explains. (Judgment call, on a case-by-case basis.) > > Does "graphic" imply mouse support? font support? fringe support? > > color support? menu support? tool-bar support, image support? > > multiple-frame support? All of these? Does non-graphics > > imply absence of all or limited support of some (e.g. frames > > and colors and fonts)? > > The node "Display Feature Testing" includes predicates and other APIs > that will allow you to test specifically for each one of the questions > you ask above. Yes, got it. Thanks. > Exceptions: > > . Menus are supported on all kinds of displays. If you want to ask > about pop-up and drop-down menus, use display-popup-menus-p. > > . Tool bar can be on or off even when it is supported, so the proper > test is to look at the value of tool-bar-mode. > > . Fringe is covered by display-graphic-p. This helps me, but perhaps that can also be made explicit in the manual. (Perhaps it is, but I didn't notice it.) > > And there are apparently finer distinctions (which also > > don't seem to be explained), such as "graphical terminal > > that supports extended ASCII input" (unless what is > > really meant is "graphical terminal, > > which supports extended ASCII input"). > > Maybe it's because English nuances evade me, but I don't see any > difference between these two wordings. Dependent vs independent clause. If all graphical terminals support extended ASCII input, then it should be the latter. If only some of them do, then it should be the former. > > And "graphic display capable of displaying several frames > > and several different fonts" (unless what is > > really meant is that all graphic displays are so capable). > > The latter. Again, see "Display Feature Testing". In that case, use "graphic display, which is capable of displaying several frames and several different fonts". The part after the comma is extra, non-essential info. It is implied by "graphic display", since all graphic displays have this property. With no comma, the phrase restricts the class of graphic displays to only those that have the property. > > And there are undefined terms, such as "multi-monitor" > > They are defined, at least as best as someone who wrote that could: > > On some "multi-monitor" setups, a single X display > outputs to more than one monitor. > > If that definition lacks something, please tell what is missing. I think it will be OK, if the quotes are removed. (BTW, in my version, it says "On these "multi-monitor" setups, a single DISPLAY value controls the output to all the physical monitors.") > > (BTW, there is quite a bit of such inappropriate quoting in the > > manuals - e.g. "function keys".) > > Quoting is what makeinfo produces from @dfn, a markup that introduces > new terminology. It should be followed or preceded by an explanation; > if there is one, what's wrong with this quoting? OK, if it's a convention or a tool artifact, then nothing can be done (and cancel what I said above about removing the quotes). I didn't realize that was the convention we use to introduce defined terms. What's wrong is that quoting is normally for, well, quoting. ;-) No text is being quoted here. But it's OK to use whatever convention we want, as long as it's consistent. I didn't know about the convention we use. BTW, I see in passing this, in node Multiple Displays: "_the_ selected frame". Is it normal that those underscores are shown as such? > > Perhaps it would be good to see all of these terms > > explained together > > somewhere: display, terminal, monitor, screen, graphic *, frame. (I > > assume none of these are synonyms.) > > They are not. Each one should be explained in its own place, and the > more important ones, although certainly not all, are in the Glossary > node. I see. That's good. How do I get to the Glossary node? I tried `g Glossary' and got no match. I tried `C-h m' and `?' and looked for "Glossary" in the Info mode help and summary, but didn't find it in either. I tried `i' but didn't find "glossary" in the index. I looked for "Glossary" in the top-level menu. I searched the manual with C-s for "lossary". What am I missing? (BTW, maybe `G' could take you to the glossary?)