From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Transient Mark Mode on by default Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 13:46:06 -0700 Message-ID: <002001c88df0$158a9410$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> References: <87myopnj0l.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <20080324115510.GA1563@muc.de><87zlsouef7.fsf@stupidchicken.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1206391630 12531 80.91.229.12 (24 Mar 2008 20:47:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 20:47:10 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 'Alan Mackenzie' , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "'Sascha Wilde'" , "'Chong Yidong'" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Mar 24 21:47:40 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1JdtZf-0007iq-M5 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 21:47:20 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JdtZ3-00033H-Kq for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 16:46:41 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JdtYz-00032d-11 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 16:46:37 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JdtYu-0002zZ-B1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 16:46:36 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JdtYu-0002zM-5M for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 16:46:32 -0400 Original-Received: from rgminet01.oracle.com ([148.87.113.118]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1JdtYt-0002Io-OQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 16:46:31 -0400 Original-Received: from agmgw1.us.oracle.com (agmgw1.us.oracle.com [152.68.180.212]) by rgminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.4/Switch-3.1.6) with ESMTP id m2OKkSho012073; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 14:46:29 -0600 Original-Received: from acsmt350.oracle.com (acsmt350.oracle.com [141.146.40.150]) by agmgw1.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.0/Switch-3.2.0) with ESMTP id m2NFt9nO022005; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 14:46:28 -0600 Original-Received: from inet-141-146-46-1.oracle.com by acsmt351.oracle.com with ESMTP id 3623774941206391566; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 13:46:06 -0700 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by bhmail.oracle.com (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 13:46:05 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AciN7E1gE9bFkhYSS/qZt5/sCAxYzQAAoylA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Whitelist: TRUE X-Whitelist: TRUE X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.4-2.6 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:93331 Archived-At: > I have to state that I'm very skeptical about that "new users" > argument. I agree. Such an argument can only go so far, and it needs context. > Granted: it will help people coming from usual gui-driven > editors to "feel at home" -- but on the other hand I suspect that many > of this "oh I know this" features prevent new users from learning the > "Emacs way" of things, which IMNSHO is at least worth knowing it. > > Further more, I recall from my newbie times, that being forced to look > at the manual for some rather basic features I expected from an editor > like Emacs to have, actually helped me, as it made me come across some > of the less obvious features early. > > In short: a user who quickly believes to know how an elaborated tool > works is likely to miss something important. I agree. Personally, I'm in favor of TMM mode or delete-selection mode as the default because I feel they are (1) close to what newbies are used to, but also (2) good for many (most?) experienced users as well. It is #2 that makes me not be in favor of CUA selection mode or PC selection mode as the default: my impression is that TMM and delete-selection mode fit the rest of Emacs better. (I am no expert on the various selection modes, however.) We should hold out a hand to newbies, but we should also nudge them along the path to some of the best ways of doing things with Emacs. We should not just emulate inferior environments that newbies might be used to. We can disagree about some of those "best ways" to use Emacs, but we might also agree about some.