From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: RE: emacs mode line suggestions Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 11:57:39 -0800 Message-ID: <001701c948ee$bec3d050$0ab32382@us.oracle.com> References: <15962952-6180-41bd-abce-1b919aa55807@v13g2000pro.googlegroups.com><87y6ziu4rm.fsf@gmail.com><000c01c948e5$c6189420$0ab32382@us.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1226951902 19775 80.91.229.12 (17 Nov 2008 19:58:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 19:58:22 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 'Richard Riley' , help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: "'Richard Riley'" Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Nov 17 20:59:25 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1L2AFj-00005z-V7 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 17 Nov 2008 20:59:20 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52984 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1L2AEb-0006l0-Hh for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 17 Nov 2008 14:58:09 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1L2AEG-0006kc-PQ for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Nov 2008 14:57:48 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1L2AEF-0006kI-La for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Nov 2008 14:57:47 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=45754 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1L2AEF-0006kF-II for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Nov 2008 14:57:47 -0500 Original-Received: from acsinet12.oracle.com ([141.146.126.234]:29172) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1L2AEE-000204-Up for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Nov 2008 14:57:47 -0500 Original-Received: from rgminet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by acsinet12.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id mAHJvUAL013852 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 17 Nov 2008 19:57:32 GMT Original-Received: from acsmt700.oracle.com (acsmt700.oracle.com [141.146.40.70]) by rgminet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id mAHJvh78026831; Mon, 17 Nov 2008 19:57:45 GMT Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.179.10) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Mon, 17 Nov 2008 19:57:38 +0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AclI6HF2nAN7VH5bS/isqNRiOmaNTwAAZXfw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Source-IP: acsmt700.oracle.com [141.146.40.70] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090206.4921CCB4.0179:SCFSTAT928724,ss=1,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:59873 Archived-At: > You seem to miss the point slightly. Many beginners do not, > for obvious reasons, frequent emacs development. And it is beginners I > was referring to. I did not miss your point. Perhaps you missed mine. New users should be encouraged to join emacs-devel if they are interested in how Emacs might be improved. That is where they can give their views about it and hear from others about it. That list was created precisely for that, among other things. This, on the other hand, is primarily a list for help questions. > Nearly all users tend to develop their own add ons and/or > customisations. Looks at the far reaching Icicles for a good > example :-; Yes, and so? I said the same thing. > It would be a pretty poor sample if the the only new users you could > discuss things with were the ones willing and able to subscribe to emacs > development. No, emacs-devel was created as the place for such discussion. The Emacs wiki is another such place. IMO, such discussion is not best on help-gnu-emacs, for new users or old. > Few users do. That doesn't mean that that's not the appropriate place for such discussion. And it doesn't make this list appropriate for it. > And having read some of the sniping there one can readily see why :-; I fully understand that, believe me. I have the scars to prove it. ;-) Again, I'm afraid there is no getting around discussion at emacs-devel, if you really want the discussion to change Emacs development. emacs-devel is like sausage making and politics. If you want to clean it up, you have to enter the room and get your hands in the mess. > > Any and all users - new and old - who are interested in > > such discussion: Please subscribe to emacs-devel, whether you just > > want to lurk or you want to contribute. That will help improve both > > emacs-devel and Emacs. People, myself included, sometimes complain > > that emacs-devel is not open enough or is too set in its ways. > > The remedy for that is for more people to participate. > > If you want to discuss hard core stuff then yes I would concur. emacs-devel is not only for hard-core stuff. It is supposedly for all discussion affecting Emacs development. If the currently discussed topics are too hard-core, then bring some soft-core ones to the party. Nothing prevents you from doing that. The point is that discussion of Emacs development is a primary purpose of emacs-devel. It is not a primary purpose of help-gnu-emacs, AFAIK. > But gauging NEW users feeling about certain emacs defaults can hardly be > done if there are no new users there. So the remedy is to encourage new users to join emacs-devel. Bring the discussion (this one, for example) there. > And you are an optimist if you feel that new users will be > subscribing to emacs development where it can be slightly > frightening for the non clued in new user IMO. There's no alternative. IMO. And not encouraging them to do so only reinforces the situation that you decry of emacs-devel not being hospitable to new users. That's like abandoning politics to the "grey-suited grafters". You are living in fantasy land if you think that development or design discussion on only help-gnu-emacs is likely to affect Emacs development or design much. Sooner or later, a decision will be made only after a discussion of the matter at emacs-devel. Might as well bring up the matter there earlier, rather than later. > While I realise you are not policing per se, I find it hard to agree > with you that a discussion about some emacs basics here is a bad thing > since the kind of people whose input would be most valuable are indeed > here. Consider the "help" part of the group name as including helping > people understand why certain things are as they are or even "help"ing > someone come to a design suggestion on how to improve it. It's not a bad thing (except if it begins to distract from the ability to get and give help here, which is the list's purpose). It's not a bad thing to discuss Emacs development anywhere, including the local cafe. The point is that it is less effective, if your goal is to change Emacs. And yes, in some cases it can get in the way of the Q&A messages here, which are on topic. Everyone's input is valuable, new users and old. Neither is "most valuable". That new users gravitate to a help list is undeniable. They come here for help. That is not a reason to divert the list to off-topic discussion. It is on topic to poll users here, and Emacs developers do that from time to time to reach a wider sample than emacs-devel. I don't think it is particularly on topic, however, to delve into design or development discussions here. But hey, you're free to do so. I offered my two cents already; feel free to ignore it.