From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: xahlee@gmail.com Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Re: [PATCH] (woman-always-choose-first-hit): New defcustom. Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 21:21:47 +0000 Message-ID: <001636458d880a725704651acee6@google.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636458d880a724204651acee3 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1237065733 24846 80.91.229.12 (14 Mar 2009 21:22:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 21:22:13 +0000 (UTC) To: Eli Zaretskii , xahlee@gmail.com, erich@cozi.com, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, eric.hanchrow@gmail.com, drew.adams@oracle.com, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Mar 14 22:23:28 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1LibKI-0001BQ-Oe for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 14 Mar 2009 22:23:27 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53227 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1LibIw-0004mZ-IO for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 14 Mar 2009 17:22:02 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1LibIq-0004lT-NL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Mar 2009 17:21:56 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1LibIl-0004es-7k for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Mar 2009 17:21:55 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=33464 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1LibIl-0004ep-5O for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Mar 2009 17:21:51 -0400 Original-Received: from rv-out-0304.google.com ([209.85.198.209]:19115) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1LibIj-0001GS-9m for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Mar 2009 17:21:50 -0400 Original-Received: by rv-out-0304.google.com with SMTP id b20so813694rvf.30 for ; Sat, 14 Mar 2009 14:21:47 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Original-Received: by 10.114.102.1 with SMTP id z1mr480312wab.0.1237065707185; Sat, 14 Mar 2009 14:21:47 -0700 (PDT) X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." 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> =E2=80=A2 The problems you mention are a far= cry from making WoMan ``unusable''.

=E2=80=9Cunusable= =E2=80=9D is probably a exaggeration. I'm trying to express how it is u= nusable to most users who are not emacs enthusiasts.

consider em= acs as a tool, and likewise man and woman are tools. People want to run man= /woman mostly to get the job done, namely, reading unix man page in emacs. = =E2=80=9Cman=E2=80=9D works. However, woman is a improvement, but isn't= default. The extra option of minor improvement to user adds a slight compl= exity. But adding the fact that woman itself provides some rough edges. So = for some emacs user who are beginning to be adventurous, when they read abo= ut woman and try it, its problem is frustrating, another tiny time drain in= emacs.

Each thing individually are trivial problems, but emacs = with so many unusual streaks, terminologies, keyboard shortcut notation, un= usual undo, etc, earns emacs the steep learning curve and drive away most p= rofessional programers.

I think most, or all of these can be fix= ed, without sacrificing ANY of emacs's power.

back to the pa= rticular case of woman... for example, i think that:

=E2=80=A2 m= an and woman should be merged, in the sense that user are taught one single= command =E2=80=9Cman=E2=80=9D to read unix manual page. This can possibly = be done by aliasing man to woman, and:

=E2=80=A2 the onset delay= of woman can certainly be minimized, perhaps by looking into ways to optim= ize, cache, or done after the first call of woman, in the background. (e.g.= when user is not typing actively) (so that, at the second call of woman in= a session, name completion feature is there, transparently) Here, i think = caching it under =E2=80=9C~/.emacs.d/=E2=80=9D is probably a very good solu= tion.

=E2=80=A2 when woman detect a page it cannot read, launch = man.

=E2=80=A2 eliminate the fact that woman prompt user to make= a choice. (which i think this thread's patch fixes)

Xah=E2=88=91 http://xahlee.org/

=E2=98=84

----------= --------------------
> [aliasing man to woman sometimes doesn't= work]
> How's that a problem with WoMan?
> And then do= es the same after you type RET. The advantage of WoMan
> is that = it offers you completion for man-page names, while `man'
> doe= sn't.
> And why do you think `man' doesn't have such pr= oblems, sometimes?
> It all depends on the troff back-end you have= installed vs the man
> pages.

On Mar 11, 2009 9:13pm, = Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 = 23:08:09 +0000
> From: xahlee@gmail.com
> Cc:
>
> the number of times i tried to use WoMan as a replacement of unix= 9;s
> =E2=80=9Cman=E2=80=9D utility, but i find it unusable. Here&#= 39;s some problems i encountered:

The problems you mention are a= far cry from making WoMan ``unusable''.

> =E2=80=A2 = I had aliased =E2=80=9Cman=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Cwoman=E2=80=9D, but noticed= that sometimes when i type
> =E2=80=9CMx man=E2=80=9D it still cal= ls =E2=80=9Cman=E2=80=9D despite this. (haven't looked into what
&= gt; causes this or how this happens)

How's that a problem wi= th WoMan?

> =E2=80=A2 When calling =E2=80=9Cwoman=E2=80=9D, i= t takes some 3 secs to start up.

What kind of a CPU do you have?= Here it takes 1 second.

> (probably only happen when called= first time in a session)

Yes.

> On the other hand= , =E2=80=9Cman=E2=80=9D starts right away without this delay.

An= d then does the same after you type RET. The advantage of WoMan is
th= at it offers you completion for man-page names, while `man' doesn't= .

> =E2=80=A2 another flaw, perhaps reasonable, is that =E2= =80=9Cwoman=E2=80=9D does not work for some
> =E2=80=9Cman=E2=80=9D= pages. eg recently i was trying to do =E2=80=9Cwoman=E2=80=9D on =E2=80=9C= killall=E2=80=9D on OS X
> 10.4.x, and it returns
> =E2=80= =9C.Dd June 25, 1995
> .Os
> .Dt KILLALL 1
> .Sh NA= ME
> .Nm killall
> ...=E2=80=9D

And why do you t= hink `man' doesn't have such problems, sometimes? It
all depe= nds on the troff back-end you have installed vs the man pages. --001636458d880a724204651acee3--