From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Why @#! is not Emacs using the Recycle bin on w32? Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 08:06:37 -0700 Message-ID: <001301c909e8$d63092e0$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> References: <48B7288E.3040503@gmail.com> <48B73AA9.5090900@gnu.org><48B73D8F.90501@gmail.com> <48B7AC10.6090800@gmail.com> <48B7B08B.6050103@gmail.com> <48B7F905.7060605@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1220022453 24331 80.91.229.12 (29 Aug 2008 15:07:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 15:07:33 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 'David House' , emacs-devel@gnu.org, jasonr@gnu.org To: "'Lennart Borgman \(gmail\)'" , "'Eli Zaretskii'" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Aug 29 17:08:26 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1KZ5Zu-0004NV-TA for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 29 Aug 2008 17:07:59 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52728 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KZ5Yw-00074z-Ax for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 29 Aug 2008 11:06:58 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KZ5Yr-00074h-TS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 29 Aug 2008 11:06:53 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KZ5Yq-00074M-2T for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 29 Aug 2008 11:06:53 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=44937 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KZ5Yp-00074J-SC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 29 Aug 2008 11:06:51 -0400 Original-Received: from agminet01.oracle.com ([141.146.126.228]:37271) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1KZ5Yj-0000m5-39; Fri, 29 Aug 2008 11:06:45 -0400 Original-Received: from rgmgw1.us.oracle.com (rgmgw1.us.oracle.com [138.1.186.110]) by agminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.4/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id m7TF6dGp004035; Fri, 29 Aug 2008 10:06:39 -0500 Original-Received: from acsmt706.oracle.com (acsmt706.oracle.com [141.146.40.84]) by rgmgw1.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.4/Switch-3.2.4) with ESMTP id m7TF6ckE014743; Fri, 29 Aug 2008 09:06:38 -0600 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/69.181.100.12) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Fri, 29 Aug 2008 08:06:38 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <48B7F905.7060605@gmail.com> Thread-Index: AckJ2yf6Vbg1OGIKT0OqBKewz8eXkAAA6Esw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Whitelist: TRUE X-Whitelist: TRUE X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.4-2.6 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:103180 Archived-At: > > We are talking about Emacs here. Emacs behavior was always that it > > deletes a file, not moves it somewhere. So any change in that > > behavior _by_default_ will surprise Emacs users. > > Then maybe a compromize could be to tell it in a prominent way so that > users have a good chance to notice it? I agree that it should be mentioned prominently. IIUC, `delete-by-moving-to-trash' works similarly on all platforms that have some sort of trash can (recycle bin) - is that correct? It's important that something like this be similar for all platforms. My preference is that this not be turned on by default - that is, keep the traditional Emacs behavior. But I recognize the counter arguments. The traditional behavior here is better for overall Emacs use, IMO, but I won't argue about it. I would argue though that the default behavior for file deletion should be the same on all platforms. Users should not need to worry about differences in this regard when they use Emacs on different platforms. For me, differences between the default behaviors of Emacs and a given platform (outside of Emacs) are less important than differences for Emacs across platforms. In this case, I care more that Emacs file deletion default behavior be the same on GNU/Linux, Mac, and Windows than I care whether Emacs file deletion default behavior on Windows respects the user's Recycle Bin setting (preference) on Windows. Lennart is right however that newbies (on all platforms) need to be made aware of the default Emacs behavior regarding file deletion and how to change it. I'd suggest adding some use of Dired to the tutorial (if it's not already there), explicitly pointing out _by example_ that your file is gone after you confirm its deletion, and explicitly showing you by example how you can get the alternative backup/trash can/recycle bin behavior. [BTW - I am astounded that Lennart, who is no newbie, just discovered the default behavior and doesn't use Dired much. I can't imagine using Emacs without Dired. Perhaps it's related to using Viper?] In sum: (1) Regardless of whether we change the default behavior, this option and the default needs to be documented prominently. (2) My preference is to keep the traditional default behavior. (3) The default behavior should be the same across platforms. -- In general, I do not agree that Emacs should aim to be as close as possible to what newbies are used to on their particular platform. Instead, each default behavior we choose needs to be decided on its own merits, and especially with an eye to how it fits with Emacs use overall. Emacs should give you useful, coherent overall behavior out of the box - not necessarily a UI that is optimal and not necessarily a UI as close as possible to newbie habits or expectations. (Yes, I know that some will disagree.) And we should make it clear how to customize the default behavior in each case. Wrt newbies, we should try to make adjustment to Emacs not too difficult, but we should not sacrifice Emacs strengths just to minimize newbie surprise. Overall, learning Emacs should be about learning a new and better way of working, and we should facilitate that learning by documenting the advantages and differences. We don't want newbies to get frustrated (e.g. lose important files) because of a lack of easily accessible information. But some of the responsibility is on their shoulders - they need to at least follow the tutorial and perhaps read a little. Perhaps this needs to be said to them up front. Emacs is not Windows or Mac or even GNU/Linux. (Yes, I know that some will disagree.)