bug#3022: 23.0.92; triangle images in Customize buffers are just plain bad

bug#3022: 23.0.92; triangle images in Customize buffers are just plain bad

[Drew Adams]

emacs -Q
 
While the idea behind the triangles (arrows) in Customize is good
(actually, I believe it was I who suggested it), the current effect is
quite bad.
 
If the value is shown, then the triangle points downward. Typically,
that symbol means that clicking it will display something additional
below the symbol. Instead, the value disappears.
 
If the value is not shown, the the symbol is a right-pointing
triangle. That's OK in this case, since it suggests that clicking it
will display something to the right, and the value is to the right.
 
However, for the symbol that replaces `More', a right-pointing
triangle is inappropriate, since the text is not displayed to its
right, but below it.
 
After you click the symbol, the cursor stays on top of the symbol
graphic, which produces the effect of a blinking filled rectangle
around the symbol. And if the buffer is not selected, a nonblinking
hollow rectangle appears around the symbol. Not good.
 
In general: These two triangle symbols don't form a natural pair:
they are not both horizontal or both vertical. An arrow needs to
point toward what it indicates, which is not what's happening now.
 
If you can't get this right using arrows, just use [+] and [-]. They
have no implied directionality. They will be quite clear.
 
 
 
In GNU Emacs 23.0.92.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600)
 of 2009-03-30 on SOFT-MJASON
Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 5.1.2600
configured using `configure --with-gcc (3.4)'
 

bug#3022: 23.0.92; triangle images in Customize buffers are just plain bad

[Chong Yidong]

> While the idea behind the triangles (arrows) in Customize is good
> (actually, I believe it was I who suggested it), the current effect is
> quite bad.
>
> If the value is shown, then the triangle points downward. Typically,
> that symbol means that clicking it will display something additional
> below the symbol. Instead, the value disappears.
>
> If the value is not shown, the the symbol is a right-pointing
> triangle. That's OK in this case, since it suggests that clicking it
> will display something to the right, and the value is to the right.
>
> However, for the symbol that replaces `More', a right-pointing
> triangle is inappropriate, since the text is not displayed to its
> right, but below it.

This is a very standard user interface idiom, known as "disclosure
triangles".

bug#3022: 23.0.92; triangle images in Customize buffers are just plain bad

[Drew Adams]

> > While the idea behind the triangles (arrows) in Customize is good
> > (actually, I believe it was I who suggested it), the 
> > current effect is quite bad.
> >
> > If the value is shown, then the triangle points downward. Typically,
> > that symbol means that clicking it will display something additional
> > below the symbol. Instead, the value disappears.
> >
> > If the value is not shown, the the symbol is a right-pointing
> > triangle. That's OK in this case, since it suggests that clicking it
> > will display something to the right, and the value is to the right.
> >
> > However, for the symbol that replaces `More', a right-pointing
> > triangle is inappropriate, since the text is not displayed to its
> > right, but below it.
> 
> This is a very standard user interface idiom, known as "disclosure
> triangles".

Calling it by name and "very standard" doesn't improve anything. It was I who
suggested the idea in the first place. The idea is fine, as I said already.

"The current _effect_ is bad." That's the point: it is simply not done right.
The result is confusion and easily missing information. See above for details.

Doors on buildings (known as "doors") are a very standard architecture idiom.
But some doors are poorly designed.

bug#3022: 23.0.92; triangle images in Customize buffers are just plain bad

[Juri Linkov]

>> > While the idea behind the triangles (arrows) in Customize is good
>> > (actually, I believe it was I who suggested it), the
>> > current effect is quite bad.
>> >
>> > If the value is shown, then the triangle points downward. Typically,
>> > that symbol means that clicking it will display something additional
>> > below the symbol. Instead, the value disappears.
>> >
>> > If the value is not shown, the the symbol is a right-pointing
>> > triangle. That's OK in this case, since it suggests that clicking it
>> > will display something to the right, and the value is to the right.
>> >
>> > However, for the symbol that replaces `More', a right-pointing
>> > triangle is inappropriate, since the text is not displayed to its
>> > right, but below it.
>>
>> This is a very standard user interface idiom, known as "disclosure
>> triangles".
>
> Calling it by name and "very standard" doesn't improve anything. It was I who
> suggested the idea in the first place. The idea is fine, as I said already.
>
> "The current _effect_ is bad." That's the point: it is simply not done right.
> The result is confusion and easily missing information. See above for details.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disclosure_widget

  The state of the widget is often signified by a label with a triangle
  next to it, pointing sideways when it is collapsed and downward when
  it is expanded (corresponding to the widget's current state), or
  a button with an arrow pointing downward when it is collapsed and
  upward when it is expanded (corresponding to how the widget will
  change state if the button is clicked).

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/

bug#3022: 23.0.92; triangle images in Customize buffers are just plain bad

[Lennart Borgman]

On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 2:50 AM, Juri Linkov <juri@jurta.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> This is a very standard user interface idiom, known as "disclosure
>>> triangles".
>>
>> Calling it by name and "very standard" doesn't improve anything. It was I who
>> suggested the idea in the first place. The idea is fine, as I said already.
>>
>> "The current _effect_ is bad." That's the point: it is simply not done right.
>> The result is confusion and easily missing information. See above for details.
>
> From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disclosure_widget
>
>  The state of the widget is often signified by a label with a triangle
>  next to it, pointing sideways when it is collapsed and downward when
>  it is expanded (corresponding to the widget's current state), or
>  a button with an arrow pointing downward when it is collapsed and
>  upward when it is expanded (corresponding to how the widget will
>  change state if the button is clicked).

I think the triangles are rather standard, but refering to them with
"Show" is not so very common outside of Emacs, but here is an example
from a customize buffer:

  Majmodpri Sort After Load: (triangle)
    State: HIDDEN, invoke "Show" in the previous line to show.

bug#3022: 23.0.92; triangle images in Customize buffers are just plain bad

[Glenn Morris]

Version: 24.1

The more/hide text seems to be back, and the other triangles aren't
going to be changed, so there's no need to keep this open.