From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: IDE features: M-x find-grep Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 16:47:04 -0700 Message-ID: <000c01c8ae41$28a5c940$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> References: <200804272236.28969.davi@leals.com> <87skx7gea3.fsf@kfs-lx.rd.rdm><87k5icp98o.fsf@jurta.org> <481BB15A.9080204@gmail.com> <878wyrat3s.fsf@jurta.org> <87k5i96ajx.fsf@jurta.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1209944896 4415 80.91.229.12 (4 May 2008 23:48:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 23:48:16 +0000 (UTC) Cc: lennart.borgman@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, davi@leals.com, storm@cua.dk To: "'Juri Linkov'" , Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon May 05 01:48:52 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1Jsnwp-0003Rg-Vo for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 05 May 2008 01:48:52 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33278 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Jsnw8-00085d-6t for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 04 May 2008 19:48:08 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Jsnw3-000859-4s for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 04 May 2008 19:48:03 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Jsnw2-00084r-5l for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 04 May 2008 19:48:02 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=55934 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Jsnw2-00084i-1V for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 04 May 2008 19:48:02 -0400 Original-Received: from agminet01.oracle.com ([141.146.126.228]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1Jsnvw-00030y-SP; Sun, 04 May 2008 19:47:57 -0400 Original-Received: from agmgw2.us.oracle.com (agmgw2.us.oracle.com [152.68.180.213]) by agminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.4/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id m44NlUIl000926; Sun, 4 May 2008 18:47:30 -0500 Original-Received: from acsmt350.oracle.com (acsmt350.oracle.com [141.146.40.150]) by agmgw2.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.0/Switch-3.2.0) with ESMTP id m44NTJNl028450; Sun, 4 May 2008 17:47:30 -0600 Original-Received: from inet-141-146-46-1.oracle.com by acsmt351.oracle.com with ESMTP id 3665591961209944807; Sun, 04 May 2008 16:46:47 -0700 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/141.144.89.88) by bhmail.oracle.com (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sun, 04 May 2008 16:46:47 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AciuPqM9dNL3d7lpTbqfwJ0gc+1coQAAEegA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 In-reply-to: <87k5i96ajx.fsf@jurta.org> X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Whitelist: TRUE X-Whitelist: TRUE X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.4-2.6 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:96463 Archived-At: > > More levels of menu is also inconvenient. The general point is > > still valid: we should have to design the best menu, not stuff > > in all the commands that we think "beginners should see". > > I think long menus are more inconvenient than deep menus. > Currently we have overly long menu Tools (28 items!), so > moving search related commands to Edit->Search will make the > Tools menu shorter. I was going to stay out of this one, but yes, I agree about Search. (And about Tools having become a catch-all - everything, after all, is a tool.) All Search stuff should be moved from Tools to a Search menu. I use a top-level Search menu, and I have for decades. Yes, I know that some of you have said that the menu-bar is not wide enough to add a Search menu. In that case, leave it under Edit or sacrifice one of the other top-level menus - move Buffers under File, for instance. Whatever. The menu-bar is the main bottleneck for adding menus, so it is natural to add submenus, at least at the menu-bar level. Yes, it is also bad to have menus that are too shallow: zillions of submenus everywhere, so you have to cascade multiple levels to get to things. As an example, Interleaf was notorious for that. It's about balance. The decision of whether to add a menu or a menu item should be based on its usefulness to users, not on whether the menus are already too crowded, too numerous, or too deep. That is a phony argument; it just supports the menus and items we have now, the status quo. Except in extreme limit conditions, menus can accommodate a lot of submenus and menu items without impacting their usefulness. On the other hand, yes, whether a menu or item is useful to users is not a question of completeness either - there is no reason to add stuff just for completeness, as Richard reminds us often. Menus are an important way of structuring information. Operations that have something in common are grouped together. This grouping makes menus a good learning tool. No, I don't expect to convince those who never use menus. But then, maybe they shouldn't be the ones to decide what the menus should be. ;-)